Author Topic: meaning of low magick (Read 6163 times)

Myst Moonlight · « **on:** April 22, 2014, 08:49:22 am »

the term low magick seems a bit demeaning doesn't it? How did that term come about?
I practice this type you see. I do not claim any greatness I'm a simple witch who uses his magick to try and make the world a better place.

Jenett · « **Reply #1 on:** April 22, 2014, 11:06:56 am »

Quote from: Myst Moonlight;145935

the term low magick seems a bit demeaning doesn't it? How did that term come about?
I practice this type you see. I do not claim any greatness I'm a simple witch who uses his magick to try and make the world a better place.

The original usage comes out of the contrast between highly ritualised ceremonial magic, usually with a theurgy bent (i.e. magic intended to connect one with various powers, whether that be deities, angels, elemental guardians or rulers, etc.) often for various larger purposes, versus the much more folk tradition magic that is also generally much more personal, but is also generally thaumaturgy (practical magic.)

Think 'I want to improve the world' or 'I want to improve my spiritual self' versus 'I want my own personal crops to grow so I have plenty to eat this harvest'.

Both are useful in various circumstances, but they're quite different in terms of tools, focus, needed skills, technique, etc.

There's an excellent thread from one of the old archive boards where the very excellent Catja talks about some of the other differences. As she points out, using 'ceremonial' and 'folk' are probably more useful descriptors.

Valentine · « **Reply #2 on:** April 23, 2014, 07:17:45 pm »

Quote from: Myst Moonlight;145935

the term low magick seems a bit demeaning doesn't it? How did that term come about?
I practice this type you see. I do not claim any greatness I'm a simple witch who uses his magick to try and make the world a better place.

I'd venture to suggest, too, considering how many aristocratic Englishmen were involved in some of this language-making, that there is some relation to the notion of high church vs. low church, which gets used a lot by Anglicans I know--"high church" being all the smells and bells, long and elaborate ritual, clerical robes, etc., vs. "low church" that's simpler and more pared-down and less expensive. I think there's probably a very Christian influence in how this particular distinction is made.

rawtruth · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2014, 07:41:20 am »

Quote from: Myst Moonlight;145935

the term low magick seems a bit demeaning doesn't it? How did that term come about?
I practice this type you see. I do not claim any greatness I'm a simple witch who uses his magick to try and make the world a better place.

I don't think its demeaning really, For example if your doing a ritual to invoke a god that could be considered a bit higher than making a mojo to get you a job don't you think.
Its not suggesting one is better than the other.

random417 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 03, 2014, 09:56:09 am »

Quote from: Jenett;145945

The original usage comes out of the contrast between highly ritualised ceremonial magic, usually with a theurgy bent (i.e. magic intended to connect one with various powers, whether that be deities, angels, elemental guardians or rulers, etc.) often for various larger purposes, versus the much more folk tradition magic that is also generally much more personal, but is also generally thaumaturgy (practical magic.)

Think 'I want to improve the world' or 'I want to improve my spiritual self' versus 'I want my own personal crops to grow so I have plenty to eat this harvest'.

As a Ceremonial or "High" Magician myself, I would like to be quick to point out that as the opposite end of that spectrum, no High Magician I've ever met uses the term Low Magick or anything of the sort as an insult or slight.
There's 2 other differences from my point of view:
1: High Magick is mostly an intellectual thing, even when you're doing the work, it's very cerebral. There's lots of research that goes into it. It's driven by the mind, in many ways. Low Magick is much more driven by emotions, by a passion that quite honestly, I envy. That's not to say that Low Magicians don't research, but... Crowley defined magick as an art and a science. High Magick is science first, then art, Low Magick is art first, then science.

2: There's quite often, although not always, a religious difference as well. High Magick tends to be monotheistic, sometimes even Christian, while Low Magick tends to deal more directly with polytheism. Not to say that both aren't used in both practices, mind you.

BrighidsAura · « **Reply #5 on:** August 03, 2014, 10:14:05 am »

Quote from: random417;154553

2: There's quite often, although not always, a religious difference as well. High Magick tends to be monotheistic, sometimes even Christian, while Low Magick tends to deal more directly with polytheism. Not to say that both aren't used in both practices, mind you.

I'm glad you mentioned this. I have only a little bit of experience with High Magick since that's what my ex-high priestess was teaching our coven. Doing the LBRP and other ceremonial rituals felt a little uncomfortable to me because of all of the Hebrew and Kabbalistic elements. I have no interest in Kabbalah and I don't really refer to god by those words so it didn't really hit me close to home.

However, we did these mind/meditation exercises that were incredible. We used the Rider-Waite tarot deck and stared at certain cards and waited for our eyes to relax and our bodies to sort of drift into a meditated state. And the image on my card moved. It literally moved and I fell into a meditation where I interacted with an old man rowing a boat through dark water on the side of a cliff and my high priestess was interpreting it for me. It was some really intense stuff and I fell in love with that exercise. The ceremonial magick, however, I didn't care for.

Wimsaur · « **Reply #6 on:** September 10, 2014, 11:40:20 am »

It Is not a moral judgement.
High Magick is all about the perfecting of the human soul and uniting with God.

Low Magick is practical and can encompass witchcraft, divination, spellwork, and any means to bring about an effect.

random417 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 10, 2014, 12:41:48 pm »

Quote from: Wimsaur;158615

High Magick is all about the perfecting of the human soul and uniting with God.

Low Magick is practical and can encompass witchcraft, divination, spellwork, and any means to bring about an effect.

See, I disagree. What you're defining here is theurgy vs. Thaumaturgy. In fact, those (with the exception of my defining witchcraft differently, and so leaving it out completely) are the exact definitions I would use.

Yes, High Magic tends to focus on theurgy, but there's a lot to be said for ceremonial processes of talismanic creation, and golems, defined for this purpose as thoughtforms created though high magic methods, can achieve so much.

In the same vein, low magic practices often go hand in hand with many Pagan and polytheistic world views. That doesn't make the spiritual transformation any less valid.

All in all, the distinction is more in technique than aim.

I'll also point out that most people that practice intcorperate elements of both, and it's more a sliding spectrum than hard and fast distinctions.

*edit for typo*

Wimsaur · « **Reply #8 on:** September 10, 2014, 12:50:11 pm »

The ceremony is merely the means to perfect the magickian.
Talisman making can be applied to both high and low depending on the aims of the magickian.

If you were to make a talisman to attract a sex partner, this would be Low Magick.
If you were to make a talisman to help you get closer to your holy guardian angel, that would be high.

All Magick to perfect the magickian is High.
Any form of magick that seeks to satiate his desires is low.

Ultimately, most magickians are likely to employ both.
Even those with high spiritual ambition are still human with all the baggage.

random417 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 10, 2014, 03:11:58 pm »

Quote from: Wimsaur;158615

It Is not a moral judgement.
High Magick is all about the perfecting of the human soul and uniting with God.

Low Magick is practical and can encompass witchcraft, divination, spellwork, and any means to bring about an effect.

See, it's funny, the definition I and others have provided doesn't imply a moral judgement. The definition you seem to be favoring, while it doesn't say it directly, a moral judgement can be extrapolated from.

Now, as I'd imagine that's going to bother many people, I'll respond to the "how so?" I imagine will be coming next...

"High Magic" by this definition, or theurgy, is always focused on the betterment of the self (or in some cases, the betterment of the world). This carries with it a moral elevation. Bettering your self, ect always "earns moral points" by its very nature.

"Low magic" by your definition, or thaumaturgy, isn't required to be elevated in the same way. Not to say that getting your finances in order, as an example, isn't sometimes a step in self betterment. The problem with this is, there's no requirement that focusing on your physical betterment be morally elevated. It also appears to be greedy and self centered.

It's for this reason that I absolutely detest the definitions you use. They do suggest value judgements.

Both definitions are kind of common use, so you're not wrong, exactly but, when you combine the 2 definitions, high magic as personal growth centered, and high magic as ceremonial, then the value judgements pour fourth. Pagany types assume that Ceremonialists cast judgement that we just don't. Then ceremonialists look stuck up. I actually wish the terms high and low magic would go away completely, replaced by theurgy/thaumatrurgy or ceremonialist/ non-ceremonialist based on your actual meaning.

In the absence of that, all I can do personally is fight the link people have a tenancy to make between the focus on ceremony and the awakening of the self.

Now, if I'm being honest, someone that focuses more on theurgy over thaumaturgy, for me, is more likely to be focused on being a more evolved person. That doesn't make thaumaturgists inherently unethical, but... does the focus on being a better person make one a better person? I would say yes, so there is a value judgement there, of a sort.

Of course, things that fall into the concept of thaumaturgy can also be indirectly theurgic, as getting your realm in order so to speak, is an important part of developing the self.

Wimsaur · « **Reply #10 on:** September 10, 2014, 04:44:45 pm »

I think that we are actually in agreement with each other.
I have never had much use for morality when it comes to magick.
I am proud to say that I am selfish and so do not mind distinguishing between high and low magick as I am a ceremonial magickian.

I have met very few pagans who are actually interested in performing magick; fewer still who take the time and discipline to practice on a regular basis.

This is neither here nor there of the topic of what actually is the difference between high and low.

Between your and my view, I believe that we have satisfactorily defined just what the difference is.

Bottom line, they are just describing two schools of thought.

Darkhawk · « **Reply #11 on:** September 11, 2014, 05:14:58 pm »

Quote from: Wimsaur;158624

The ceremony is merely the means to perfect the magickian.

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Wimsaur · « **Reply #12 on:** September 17, 2014, 12:14:43 pm »

Quote from: random417;158631

See, it's funny, the definition I and others have provided doesn't imply a moral judgement. The definition you seem to be favoring, while it doesn't say it directly, a moral judgement can be extrapolated from.

Now, as I'd imagine that's going to bother many people, I'll respond to the "how so?" I imagine will be coming next...

"High Magic" by this definition, or theurgy, is always focused on the betterment of the self (or in some cases, the betterment of the world). This carries with it a moral elevation. Bettering your self, ect always "earns moral points" by its very nature.

"Low magic" by your definition, or thaumaturgy, isn't required to be elevated in the same way. Not to say that getting your finances in order, as an example, isn't sometimes a step in self betterment. The problem with this is, there's no requirement that focusing on your physical betterment be morally elevated. It also appears to be greedy and self centered.

It's for this reason that I absolutely detest the definitions you use. They do suggest value judgements.

Both definitions are kind of common use, so you're not wrong, exactly but, when you combine the 2 definitions, high magic as personal growth centered, and high magic as ceremonial, then the value judgements pour fourth. Pagany types assume that Ceremonialists cast judgement that we just don't. Then ceremonialists look stuck up. I actually wish the terms high and low magic would go away completely, replaced by theurgy/thaumatrurgy or ceremonialist/ non-ceremonialist based on your actual meaning.

In the absence of that, all I can do personally is fight the link people have a tenancy to make between the focus on ceremony and the awakening of the self.

Now, if I'm being honest, someone that focuses more on theurgy over thaumaturgy, for me, is more likely to be focused on being a more evolved person. That doesn't make thaumaturgists inherently unethical, but... does the focus on being a better person make one a better person? I would say yes, so there is a value judgement there, of a sort.

Of course, things that fall into the concept of thaumaturgy can also be indirectly theurgic, as getting your realm in order so to speak, is an important part of developing the self.

I prefer to think of bettering myself to mean improving myself and learning to give up restrictions.

PrincessKLS · « **Reply #13 on:** December 15, 2014, 04:41:09 pm »

Quote from: rawtruth;154542

I don't think its demeaning really, For example if your doing a ritual to invoke a god that could be considered a bit higher than making a mojo to get you a job don't you think.
Its not suggesting one is better than the other.

I think he meant that it comes across as an insult like saying it's "low magick" is saying it's not as powerful or that it has negative connotations. Even within the pagan community I noticed that some practitioners claims Hoodoo, Voodoo, Chaos Magick, etc is part of the darker path.

Lokison · « **Reply #14 on:** December 17, 2014, 09:06:05 am »

Quote from: PrincessKLS;167449

Even within the pagan community I noticed that some practitioners claims Hoodoo, Voodoo, Chaos Magick, etc is part of the darker path.

Magic is energy, plain and simple. As LaVey put it, "White magic is supposedly utilized only for good or unselfish purposes, and black magic, we are told, is used only for selfish or "evil" reasons. Magic is magic, be it used to help or hinder. The magician, should have the ability to decide what is just, and then apply the powers of magic to attain his goals. Nature, in her ineffable wisdom, wastes nothing."

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Author Topic: meaning of low magick (Read 6163 times)

Myst Moonlight

meaning of low magick

Jenett

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Valentine

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rawtruth

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random417

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BrighidsAura

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Wimsaur

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random417

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Wimsaur

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random417

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Wimsaur

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Darkhawk

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Wimsaur

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