The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

Hello there!

I've been quiet for some time.

For some time I've worried about some issues in paganism that has affected me.

Most of us chose to follow one or more ethnic paths (gaelic, welsh, norse, etc) or at least we draw from them or connect with some of their gods.

But in paganism we have those racist, white-separatist pagans who said that one should not follow an ethnic path unless you are part of them in a biological sense.

So, I'm a little scared to work with Norse gods. Some followers have created a bad aura around them, I think.

So, we does this ideas came from? What are the "basis" for those racist claims? Where in the lore of those cultures is something regarding who can or can't follow a god based on race or ethnicity? Why can't a Jew or an African-American worship Odin if he want to?

I have a lot of interest in Welsh, Norse and Hellenic cultures. Do I have ethnicity, ancestors or blood that tied me to them? I don't know, nor I don't care.

Also I've heard that some people started worshipping those gods to honor their ancestors, because their ancestors worshipped that gods too. But almost all our known ancestors were Christian. Should I be christian to worship them? What is the role of the religion or gods I choose to follow with my ancestors? To honor them correctly, we have to choose the same pantheon as they did? Sounds weird...

I know this forum is against racism, I just want to know where did this ideas come from, knowing that they didn't come from the lore nor the cultures itself.

Sorry, I wrote a lot of ideas that are on my head. Hope we can have a nice dialog.

 
For some people, honoring the gods of their pre-Christian ancestors is a workable model. That's not universal within pagan religions. It's not even a valid universal assumption that people will know who their pre-Christian ancestors were. You're going to find racists in any religion, because religions are made up of human beings with human flaws, but the gods aren't going to shut you down just because you don't have the correct pedigree.

Hello there!

I've been quiet for some time.

For some time I've worried about some issues in paganism that has affected me.

Most of us chose to follow one or more ethnic paths (gaelic, welsh, norse, etc) or at least we draw from them or connect with some of their gods.

But in paganism we have those racist, white-separatist pagans who said that one should not follow an ethnic path unless you are part of them in a biological sense.

So, I'm a little scared to work with Norse gods. Some followers have created a bad aura around them, I think.

So, we does this ideas came from? What are the "basis" for those racist claims? Where in the lore of those cultures is something regarding who can or can't follow a god based on race or ethnicity? Why can't a Jew or an African-American worship Odin if he want to?

I have a lot of interest in Welsh, Norse and Hellenic cultures. Do I have ethnicity, ancestors or blood that tied me to them? I don't know, nor I don't care.

Also I've heard that some people started worshipping those gods to honor their ancestors, because their ancestors worshipped that gods too. But almost all our known ancestors were Christian. Should I be christian to worship them? What is the role of the religion or gods I choose to follow with my ancestors? To honor them correctly, we have to choose the same pantheon as they did? Sounds weird...

I know this forum is against racism, I just want to know where did this ideas come from, knowing that they didn't come from the lore nor the cultures itself.

Sorry, I wrote a lot of ideas that are on my head. Hope we can have a nice dialog.

You can be of any religious or cultural background and venerate the deities you feel drawn to, and the gods/goddesses wish to work with you. Racist pagans are like any fundamentalist who think only certain people can have access to the divine/be accepted by the divine; that's not true. I doubt any deity cares about the color of your skin or ethnic background. Intent is what really matters.

The generations within those cultures you named were pagan before the rise of Christianity. Historically, religion of all kinds has crossed cultural boundaries. After a certain point, it becomes somewhat futile to pinpoint exactly where your ancestors originated from. When it comes down to it, we are all one human race.

Don't let those who spout such nonsense destroy your urge to follow the deities you want. If you want to follow Odin, seek him out. Find like-minded people who won't create a bad aura around them. I find that many of the race-based restrictions regarding religion come from people who want to control others. Those same people that taint religion are ignorant and really shouldn't be listened to.

But in paganism we have those racist, white-separatist pagans who said that one should not follow an ethnic path unless you are part of them in a biological sense.

So, I'm a little scared to work with Norse gods. Some followers have created a bad aura around them, I think.

I have no hard citations to back this up, but I really feel that someone pushing a racist agenda can latch onto many things.  It isn't necessarily a characteristic of the religion itself.  The Norse religion isn't racist inherently, rather some adherents are racist and want to be exclusionary, using their religion as a means to do so.

If you are called to work with Norse deities, then I think you should go where you feel called.

So, we does this ideas came from? What are the "basis" for those racist claims? Where in the lore of those cultures is something regarding who can or can't follow a god based on race or ethnicity? Why can't a Jew or an African-American worship Odin if he want to?

I'm not familiar with Germanic paganism, but I would guess the idea comes from racist individuals twisting their religion to serve their own racist agendas.  Jews and African-Americans can and do worship Odin.  You can too, unless somehow you get a sense that Odin does not appreciate it.  From Odin himself...not from racists jerks.

I have a lot of interest in Welsh, Norse and Hellenic cultures. Do I have ethnicity, ancestors or blood that tied me to them? I don't know, nor I don't care.

Good, you shouldn't care.  I have no Native American Indian blood in me.  But I live in the US and have a great appreciation for their culture and want to get to know the spirits and gods of this land on which I live.  I also have a lot of love and appreciation for Irish and Scottish culture.  I have extremely small percentage of those ancestries compared to my English and German sides, yet I do not feel drawn to the English and German.

Also I've heard that some people started worshipping those gods to honor their ancestors, because their ancestors worshipped that gods too. But almost all our known ancestors were Christian. Should I be christian to worship them? What is the role of the religion or gods I choose to follow with my ancestors? To honor them correctly, we have to choose the same pantheon as they did? Sounds weird...

I think that's fine if that works for them.  One of the reasons I began to explore paganism is I knew Christianity was forced on me because it was the religion I was raised with, and I was never given a chance (nor encouraged) to explore what was right for me.  I thought hey, it was forced on the ancient peoples of Europe as well, I wonder what they did before...  (Though I'm not sure how strong said "force" was)

But as you said, all my known ancestors were likely Christian (or I knew them to be).  I still honor them.  I don't have to be Christian to honor them, and you don't have to honor your ancestors at all if you don't want to.

In the end, we all choose the path that works for us.  For me, it began with honoring my ancestors and exploring the ancient religion of Ireland.  It then moved to realizing I am drawn to Egyptian deities and not clicking with the Irish, though the work involved in neo-Druidry resonates strongly with me.  From there, I realized that I'm not sure about Egyptian deity and am learning about the spirits involved in Native American Indian religions of my birth state and current location as I continue to honor Sekhmet.  It will continue to evolve, and that's okay.

I understand that the white separatist attitudes that exist in some areas of Germanic paganism bother you.  That's very understandable.  But know that they more than likely do not represent what those religions are about.  There are others with no northern European ancestry who follow the Norse pantheon or other Germanic deities/religious practice.  If the path that is right for you involves honoring Germanic or other European deities and being involved with that practice, then you should pursue that path.  In ancient times the world was a big, separated place due to limitations in travel and communication.  Even then deity and religious ideas crossed borders.  Today we have a very connected world where we immigrate and travel and communicate with others thousands of miles (kilometers) away.  If religion crossed borders back in antiquity, how could we not expect it to be even more so in our uber-connected world?

...

It seems to me that racism is an alien thing to ancient lores and religions.

So, has anyone identified where does this alien ideas started to take place? Are they using external sources to justify racism and bigotry, to exclude people just due to ethnicity? Are concepts like 'folk-soul' Norse or just Jungian, etc?

For me, I do believe cultures has nothing nothing to do with biology. Any anthropologist would agree on that. Genes have nothing to do with culture. A culture is something learned or adopted, but not inherited. Anyone can change their culture or learn and live in new cultures. If someone wants to follow Norse gods, I think he would need to learn and understand the culture of such gods, because culture is learned, not something that is passed through genes.

Also there are cases of cultures who changed their ethnicity. It have happened
many times throughout history.  For instance, after the Mongols invaded China,
they eventually became culturally Chinese, that is, they adopted a Chinese
ethnicity.  And even the IE Tocharians did the same.

So I think race and ethnicity has nothing to do with gods nor the lore. But again then, where does those people claim or backup their claims, in the lore?

I've never seen one try.

Basically they backup their claims in romantic ideas and people like Julius Evola, Jung, and others, but not on the lore?

So they shouldn't speak as their way is the correct way.

But in paganism we have those racist, white-separatist pagans who said that one should not follow an ethnic path unless you are part of them in a biological sense.

As has been said, culture isn’t written in your genes so this is nonsense.

People who argue this usually don’t know much about history and they never go back in time far enough when looking for the pre-Christian faith(s) of their ancestors.

For example, I’m German and my family has been living in Bavaria for at least five generations. So clearly that puts my ancestors firmly in the Germanic category, right? Nope. Because five generations ago my family was mostly Christian and a bit Jewish. Finding out what people in this area believed before becoming Christian requires me to look back at pre-Christian times. And that’s when things get complicated.

Because in pre-Roman times this area was predominantly Celtic (yeah, guess what? Celts didn’t come from the British Iles). And then the Romans came, still pre Christianity, and brought their faiths with them. I say “faiths” because the religion of the Romans was itself a mixture of various believe systems. And of course Roman legionaries, traders, etc. could come from anywhere in the empire – from modern day Portugal to Libya to eastern Turkey.

And then the migration period started and shuffled European peoples all over the place, bringing various Germanic tribes into the area. And the reason for that were the Huns, who made it all the way to Gaul (France) from central Asia and for some time even controlled part of what is now Bavaria. And at about that time the area began to be Christianized, but there’s no way to tell when my own ancestors converted or what they believed before becoming Christian.

Anyway, the point is all that could potentially be part of my gene pool – Celts, multicultural Romans, Huns – and by extension part of my cultural heritage as per the “religion is genetic” argument above. I may well have ancestors from ancient Egypt, allowing me to practice Kemetism even though I don’t look like it (i.e. very bright pinkish skin and dark blond hair). And that’s only the options assuming that my ancestors have stayed put for the past 1500 years, which I don’t know. I only know of five generations and that’s nothing.

For Europeans at least, basing your assumptions of your ancestor’s pre-Christian faiths solely on where you live now, or where your grandparents came from is not a good idea. Your best option is a gene test to see the migration patterns of your biological ancestors and go from there. Ironically, the “culture is genetic” folks don’t seem to be very keen on this, probably because they know that it would wreck all delusions they have about genetic and cultural “purity”.

For Europeans at least, basing your assumptions of your ancestor’s pre-Christian faiths solely on where you live now, or where your grandparents came from is not a good idea. Your best option is a gene test to see the migration patterns of your biological ancestors and go from there. Ironically, the “culture is genetic” folks don’t seem to be very keen on this, probably because they know that it would wreck all delusions they have about genetic and cultural “purity”.

 
Did the DNA testing.  Hispanic (explains the cousins in a few South American and Central American countries), English, Jewish and found a match to somebody from Norway.