collapse

* Recent Posts

Author Topic: Wicca pros and cons  (Read 3329 times)

PrincessKLS

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Location: 1983-10-02
  • Posts: 237
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
  • Religion: goddess worship grey, folk magick, hoodoo inspired.
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Wicca pros and cons
« on: April 18, 2014, 04:06:15 pm »
I'm not saying this is a bad religion but why does it seem like this religion is treated as just a "beginner's religion" and books written on the subject seem so watered down and made for dabbler consumption?
PrincessKLS

Allaya

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Location: Out of My Mind
  • *
  • Posts: 964
  • Country: no
  • Total likes: 88
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Idio-syncretic
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/hers
Re: Wicca pros and cons....
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2014, 04:29:36 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;145553
I'm not saying this is a bad religion but why does it seem like this religion is treated as just a "beginner's religion" and books written on the subject seem so watered down and made for dabbler consumption?

 
I know this may come as a shock, but Silver Ravenwolf isn't the kind of author you should be looking to for a solid grasp on what Wicca is. I'm going to be radical here and suggest that if you want to know about Wicca, you probably should read the books written by the guy who got it started, Gerald Gardener.

I might also go as far as to suggest that it's sometimes treated like a dabbler's practice since some folks seem to go through a phase of trying to use it to justify doing whatever it is that want to do without much thought as to why that might not be such a hot idea. You know, the dabblers who don't bother to read about the history and culture behind a tradition before jumping right in and treating it like a vending machine.
Service is the rent we pay for the privilege of living on this earth.  — Shirley Chisholm
No doubt the truth can be unpleasant, but I am not sure that unpleasantness is the same as the truth.  — Roger Ebert
It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their livelihood depends upon them not understanding it. — Upton Sinclair (adapted)
People cannot be reasoned out of an opinion that they have not reasoned themselves into. — Fisher Ames (adapted)

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3745
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1241
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Wicca pros and cons....
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2014, 05:08:08 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;145553
I'm not saying this is a bad religion but why does it seem like this religion is treated as just a "beginner's religion" and books written on the subject seem so watered down and made for dabbler consumption?

 
Short version? Because publishers, unsurprisingly, want to make money from their books (so they can pay their authors and their editors and their artists, and so they can keep making *more* books.)

And because a combination of things happened in the late 80s and early 90s that made the exoteric forms of Wicca both particularly palatable in the larger culture *and* because there was growing access to other forms of information (the beginnings of the Internet) but not quite there yet for a lot of people in a lot of places.

The things that I think it's important to realise are:

1) The published stuff about Wicca, by and large, is not about the esoteric mystery-centered initiatory Wicca (or when it is, it's fragmentary and partial, and not a complete system/complete experience/etc.)

2) Writing about the exoteric parts of Wicca - the enjoyable rituals, the spells, the "this color goes with this sign goes with this deity" is really easy to do in a fun way (but really hard to do *well* in a way that respresents the complexity of the esoteric religion, or even a well-developed exoteric religion.)

That fun side has a place, but it can be very tempting for people not to go further, or realise there's actually a lot more there.

3) That all religions, really, have this happen - you see the same thing in Christianity with badly-done explanations of complex religious concepts. You see this in Judaism. I'm less familiar with it in other religions, but I'm pretty sure there's also lots of examples of how people take certain points, ignore others, and build up something different from there.

(Sometimes for really good reasons, sometimes not: there are reasons that, say, children's bibles exist. The problem is when people think that's all there is, or don't go back as adults to deal with the more complicated stories or issues.)

In other words, a lot of the published Wiccan material is on the level of "And now let's dye eggs for Easter! And make evergreen wreaths for Christmas!" Which on one hand can be a totally legitimate part of someone's life and celebrations. But on the other hand, is not getting at - well - almost any of the actual theology, ritual structure, ritual theory, or ethics of the religion.

So. What do people who are actually interested in the religion do? They seek out books that go deeper (and there have been those pretty much all along: there's tons of meaty stuff in Gardner, in Starhawk, in Margot Adler, f'instance. The 80s and 90s also brought us a lot of ritual theory discussion and Ellen Cannon Reed and Robin Wood's book on ethics, and a dozen other things I can think of. And there's more since, of course. Just you have to decide you want to do the work of coasting along the top of the pretty frothy happy stuff that's easy.

But again. Really, not that different from any other religion that has books about it.
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5223
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1133
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Wicca pros and cons....
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2014, 05:12:00 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;145556
So. What do people who are actually interested in the religion do? They seek out books that go deeper (and there have been those pretty much all along: there's tons of meaty stuff in Gardner, in Starhawk, in Margot Adler, f'instance. The 80s and 90s also brought us a lot of ritual theory discussion and Ellen Cannon Reed and Robin Wood's book on ethics, and a dozen other things I can think of. And there's more since, of course. Just you have to decide you want to do the work of coasting along the top of the pretty frothy happy stuff that's easy.

 
Though, obligatory comment: Starhawk not Wiccan.  And because Starhawk not Wiccan you get a lot of weird shit emerging from trying to make her Craft and Gardner's Craft the same thing, somehow.

Which isn't to say there isn't depth to be had there, as well as in other sources, but not all commonly-accessible witchcraft books are operating in the same tradition, with the same theology, or with the same basic assumptions.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3745
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1241
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Wicca pros and cons....
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2014, 05:15:07 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;145557
Though, obligatory comment: Starhawk not Wiccan.  And because Starhawk not Wiccan you get a lot of weird shit emerging from trying to make her Craft and Gardner's Craft the same thing, somehow.

Which isn't to say there isn't depth to be had there, as well as in other sources, but not all commonly-accessible witchcraft books are operating in the same tradition, with the same theology, or with the same basic assumptions.

 
Yes, that, sorry. (And for that matter, Adler, also writing about a bunch of things that are not Wicca.) My point, in general, is that there have been people doing writing-with-depth all along, and in widely-shared resources, so it's not like it's not out there among the lighter things.

(And yes yes yes on trying to make a single cohesive tradition out of the published stuff. It isn't. It has a hundred different roots, and not all of them fit together. Many of them don't fit together, and were never meant to.)
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

dragonfaerie

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Location: Baltimore, MD
  • *
  • Posts: 441
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 5
  • Priestess of Caffeina
    • View Profile
    • Soylent Purple
  • Religion: Wicca & Druidry
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her/her
Re: Wicca pros and cons....
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 11:36:28 am »
Quote from: Darkhawk;145557
Which isn't to say there isn't depth to be had there, as well as in other sources, but not all commonly-accessible witchcraft books are operating in the same tradition, with the same theology, or with the same basic assumptions.

And this is why the path of the eclectic is not for people who cannot think for themselves. Though I suppose I could also argue that Wicca, at its core, isn't either.

As usual, the ever-eloquent Jenett has beaten me to most of what I was going to respond with. But I can say I know many people for whom Wicca has been their path for 20, 30+ years. I've been Wiccan for almost 20 years myself.

Many of the forms of Wicca I've come into contact with, including the type I practice myself, has infinite potential for growth and depth if you're willing to do the work. Which is why there aren't many books out there beyond the 101-type things. At the core, Wicca is a mystery religion. A mystical religion. And you can't communicate mysticism in words very well.

I mean, I can try to tell you what it feels like to invoke a deity, to "draw down the moon". I can try to tell you what it feels like to send spell energy into the cosmos. I can try to tell you what I felt when I was initiated into my coven. But those words are imperfect and incomplete.

Books are just a starting point. Until you actually cast a circle, do a ritual, feel the energies you're working with, understand how elementals can manifest when you call the Quarters, you're only getting half the story.

Now, where I think a lot of so-called "neoWicca" goes wrong is that it only seems focused on the mechanics, and not the deeper work that goes with it. Waving an athame around in a circle doesn't cast a circle, any more than lighting a candle and saying some rhyming words makes a spell. Whether those authors find similar difficulty in explaining the deeper parts that I do, or whether they just don't know that there are deeper parts, I don't know.

Karen
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 11:37:25 am by dragonfaerie »

Snowdrop

  • Master Member
  • ******
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Posts: 416
  • Country: 00
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Wicca pros and cons....
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 12:04:38 pm »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;145553
I'm not saying this is a bad religion but why does it seem like this religion is treated as just a "beginner's religion" and books written on the subject seem so watered down and made for dabbler consumption?

 
Mostly, I think, because it's the only pagan religion a lot of people have even heard of.  So if you're disillusioned with Christianity or Judaism, not interested in Eastern religions, but don't want to just shrug and become agnostic, Wicca seems to offer the most obvious third option.  (Or I guess fourth option in this case.)  

I'm sure it varies a lot from region to region, so I don't know how much this holds true outside of Twin Cities area, but when I was 13-14 I was the fluffy, "I don't actually know what any of this even is" type of Wiccan --- and so were almost all of the girls I was friends with.  I don't know of any other pagan religion that has anything approaching that level of mass appeal.  

Also, I think Wicca has become appealing particularly in the US because it's associated with things that are largely absent in American Protestantism: female deity, an emphasis on ritual and celebration, a strong like of poetry and the arts, lack of clearly-defined dogma, etc.  The problem is . . . this mass appeal also makes it comparatively easy to take Wicca and repackage it as this glossy commodity that's so much better than Mean Ol' Christianity.

PrincessKLS

  • Journeyman
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Location: 1983-10-02
  • Posts: 237
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1
    • View Profile
  • Religion: goddess worship grey, folk magick, hoodoo inspired.
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Wicca pros and cons....
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2014, 11:14:36 pm »
Quote from: Snowdrop;145866
Mostly, I think, because it's the only pagan religion a lot of people have even heard of.  So if you're disillusioned with Christianity or Judaism, not interested in Eastern religions, but don't want to just shrug and become agnostic, Wicca seems to offer the most obvious third option.  (Or I guess fourth option in this case.)  

I'm sure it varies a lot from region to region, so I don't know how much this holds true outside of Twin Cities area, but when I was 13-14 I was the fluffy, "I don't actually know what any of this even is" type of Wiccan --- and so were almost all of the girls I was friends with.  I don't know of any other pagan religion that has anything approaching that level of mass appeal.  

Also, I think Wicca has become appealing particularly in the US because it's associated with things that are largely absent in American Protestantism: female deity, an emphasis on ritual and celebration, a strong like of poetry and the arts, lack of clearly-defined dogma, etc.  The problem is . . . this mass appeal also makes it comparatively easy to take Wicca and repackage it as this glossy commodity that's so much better than Mean Ol' Christianity.

 

Yes in the conservative, bible belt states like mine was growing up, "Wicca" can be seen as a rebellion thing and for me and my sister that's basically how it started because we were raised in a superstrict Baptist family and community. So Wicca and other "witchcraft" religions was interesting.
PrincessKLS

Athirat-umy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2014
  • Posts: 3
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
    • http://terraspiritus.ca
Re: Wicca pros and cons....
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2014, 02:19:21 am »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;145553
I'm not saying this is a bad religion but why does it seem like this religion is treated as just a "beginner's religion" and books written on the subject seem so watered down and made for dabbler consumption?

 
I saw an excellent list on another site I visit from time to time. Very NOT watered down, I assure you. :
"Witchcraft Today" by Gerald Gardner
"The Meaning of Witchcraft" by Gerald Gardner
"High Magick's Aid" by Gerald Gardner (fiction)
"The Witch's Bible Complete" by Janet and Stewart Farrar (Contains the
books "What Witches Do" and "Eight Sabbats for Witches"
"Lid off the Cauldron" by Patricia Crowther
"High Priestess" by Patricia Crowther
"Witch Blood" by Patricia Crowther
"The Training and Work of an Initiate" by Dion Fortune
"Wiccan Roots" by Philip Heselton
"Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration" by Philip Heselton
"Triumph of the Moon" by Ronald Hutton
"The Goat Foot God" by Dion Fortune (fiction)
"Lammas Night" by Katherine Kurtz (fiction)
"The Rebirth of Witchcraft" by Doreen Valiente
"Wicca: The Old Religion in the New Millenium" by Vivianne Crowley

And I very much agree with the other respondents - the exoteric is far easier to come by than the esoteric.
Even for myself, I was practicing a few years before I realized that the ritual and actions were only a part of it. One day things really clicked for me, and now the theology and the whole 9 yards really resonates for me.

baduhmtisss

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Sep 2013
  • Location: Texas
  • Posts: 517
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 3
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Undefined
  • Preferred Pronouns: She/Her
Re: Wicca pros and cons....
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2014, 09:45:03 am »
Quote from: PrincessKLS;146346
Yes in the conservative, bible belt states like mine was growing up, "Wicca" can be seen as a rebellion thing and for me and my sister that's basically how it started because we were raised in a superstrict Baptist family and community. So Wicca and other "witchcraft" religions was interesting.

 
What counts as /rebellion/ is only really relevant to the particular family you have, IMHO. Different families see rebellion in their children differently. For some, wicca may be seen as more of an exploration, then a rebellion against the family/family's religious preferences, and vice versus. Not everybody in the "bible belt states" will see everything the same way.

More on topic, I am pretty much agreeing with Jenett here, and think she's right on the money (metaphorically speaking, that is).
Undefined religion | Parrot Mom | Disaster Reservist

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
12 Replies
5363 Views
Last post May 08, 2012, 08:15:14 am
by Sage
1 Replies
2755 Views
Last post May 30, 2012, 11:00:52 am
by Micheál
40 Replies
8401 Views
Last post November 04, 2013, 03:01:22 pm
by Micheál
27 Replies
8507 Views
Last post April 18, 2014, 12:49:24 pm
by PrincessKLS
10 Replies
2310 Views
Last post July 05, 2016, 09:42:57 am
by Jenett

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 228
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 0

There aren't any users online.

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal