The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

But presumably you know the gods you're calling on and are familiar with what sort of response they would mete out. The help I get when I call on Kuan Yin is very, very different than the help I get when Loki decides to show up.


 
To continue the justice system metaphor, if I call the cops on my neighbor, I have a pretty good idea how that's going to end (or at least, how I want it to end) and I'm deciding that I want that to happen. I can't call the cops on my fighting neighbors and then act surprised when one of them is arrested for domestic violence. I still took an action that had a consequence, I just did it in a less personally dangerous way than barging in there myself to stop the fight.

 

So, are you saying you have no culpability when handing something over to Kali and asking for her to mete out justice, especially when bringing something to her attention?  Are you aware of how Kali operates?

The potential consequences of "making something right" are the same as the potential consequences of any action.  Asking a god to intervene and mete out justice is an action and, in the case you described before, one you willingly did.  Therefore, any consequences are your responsibility because you acted.

So, are you saying that we shouldn't bring the wrongs of others to the attention of the police or the gods because there may be consequences to the perpetrator? In the example of calling the cops, rarely does the person doing so have any personal consequences. And I've never experienced any consequences for bringing a wrong to the attention of a god/dess. I'm not denying that I'm responsible for bringing it to their attention. Just that I've suffered consequences for doing so.

I suggest you read Sunflower's post in this thread about what a curse is.

Unfortunately, it's not about what a curse is. It's about what many of us in this thread seem to be under the impression think it is. If there is more to a curse that I seem to missing I certainly would appreciate somebody providing a clear definition of what a curse actually is so that we are all on the same page.

So, if you don't actually know what is just, how do you determine which deities have wisdom on the subject?

Sunflower

I believe that any deity is wiser than I on that subject, but I find a deity who is known for justice or as in the case of the abused woman I was doing a justice spell for I turned to Kali who is known for protecting women.

I'm understanding this as "the gods are wiser and therefore better than humans at deciding what appropriately constitutes 'justice' in any given situation".  If that's the case then what's the point in even involving/trusting/relying on the judicial system?  Why not just pray to whoever that "justice is served" rather than filing a restraining order, calling the police, serving jury duty, etc.?

The way I see it, we should take mundane actions in conjunction with magickal ones whenever possible.

I'm saying that you should think about whether those consequences are the ones you want to happen. If you call animal control on those stray cats, and you know animal control takes them to a kill shelter... what did you expect to happen? Maybe instead you could contact a local animal rescue. Maybe instead you could find a group that traps/fixes/releases strays to curb population issues. Maybe you can adopt one of the strays. You're making a choice. That's on you. Maybe you're okay with that, and that's fine. Just make it knowingly.

Thanks. In the cases stated, I was fine with whatever the consequences were. I don't do that sort of thing willy-nilly.

I apparently skipped over this earlier. If you honestly think you can make people regret their rape by raping them in return, then you are just sick and the fact that you took that away from my post just disgusts me. How does making more rape or more murder or more pain make the world a better place? Many rapists become rapists because they suffered abuse as children. Abusing in response to abuse doesn't end it. It just perpetuates the cycle.

 
La la la la hey look a straw man.
La la la la I don't care if my rapist was abused as a child.

But hey if calling me a horrible person makes you feel better, go for it. I exist solely to help others become better people and having feelings of my own is totally selfish.

Oh, please.  Do you honestly believe all rapists were similarly abused as children?  Really?

Brina

 
Most rapists are "normal people." That's part of living in a rape culture. We have this idea that people who rape are terrible monstrous sociopaths who no one actually knows and couldn't possibly be someone's neighbor, pastor, parent, sibling, teacher, coach, significant other... but the terrifying truth is giving statistics, most of us probably do know a rapist. Probably multiple rapists. And they sure as hell aren't all poor little abused whatever. Not that would be even an excuse if it were. Like. Who the hell cares the why in this situation? I'd rather give my fucks to the victims.

Simple punishment doesn't do shit other than make the punisher feel good.

 
I think you're displaying a fundamental misunderstanding, here.  Cursing someone, for me, doesn't feel good, and is often costly.  The scenario I talked about earlier--the people who will just hurt other people over and over and over and can't be stopped by social pressure or the law because they have power in those systems--I'm not talking about punitive punishment, like "I want to make them hurt"--that can feel satisfying for a moment but it doesn't solve the problem.  I'm talking about the basic goal of preventing them from hurting any more people.

I live in a world where if I physically or legally go after someone who keeps hurting my loved ones, probably I will go to jail and they will stay free and keep hurting people.  If it were about feeling good as a punisher, I'd just go hit that person anyway.  My goal is removing their ability to hurt other people, not "vengeance."

I am talking about real actual people I have met.  I'm talking about the guy who looked across a table at me and admitted he kept a long list of the women he'd violated including at gunpoint because he already knew he'd manipulated the system effectively enough to get off scot-free, made it plain he was going to keep doing it, and smiled while he talked about it so casually it was like he was talking about popping down to the grocery store for eggs.  I don't know if anyone is "evil" and I don't care--I care that that is a person who will keep hurting others in the most profound ways possible until someone makes him stop.

I'm sorry, but when the choice is somehow doing an effective protective spell on everyone that person will ever meet, somehow instantly reforming our legal and police system, somehow developing and then getting access to some kind of theoretical coercive brain surgery, or doing something to contain, disable, or take out that one person who is continually raping and abusing people and altering the courses of dozens of lives?  

It's not about feeling like a badass.  It's about, my vaunted moral purity is not worth sitting back while that happens, or going, "Well, the Gods have a plan."  Maybe sometimes the Gods' plan is us getting up and actually acting in the world.  What is magic for?

It's not about feeling like a badass.  It's about, my vaunted moral purity is not worth sitting back while that happens, or going, "Well, the Gods have a plan."  Maybe sometimes the Gods' plan is us getting up and actually acting in the world.  What is magic for?

I think that's a fair stance (though I have already stated that I'm skeptical about the efficacy of magic and think that spending that time and energy on mundane actions would be more worthwhile). I'm not arguing against defensive or preventative measures. I disagree with the attitude some display that "because someone did something bad to me, I should do something bad to them". I just think that particular attitude doesn't benefit anyone, makes the world a worse place, and diverts energy that could otherwise be spent improving the world.

EDIT: I'm ultimately opposed to revenge. Not justice. I just think that when individuals are allowed to decide what's just, there are significant problems for society.

Is this an attitude you are encountering elsewhere? Because I am not seeing this attitude here at all, and instead frequently seeing "Someone is hurting me/people I love, nothing is being done about it re: the police or the courts, and I want them to stay as far away from me as possible for my/my family's/my friend's survival".

This is my impression of this thread, too. There was mention earlier in the thread about vigilantism and revenge, but it seems the sticking point for many people is the right to self-defense. It certainly is for me.

Even if a person who intends me harm does so because of childhood trauma, brain tumors, or social conditioning, this does not in any way require me to let them harm me.

Also, stopping harm and fixing the root causes of that harm are not mutually exclusive.

Apparently you can't read my posts. I clearly said "many", not all. If I can treat the disease instead of the symptoms, I'd rather do that.

As Sunflower mentioned, gonna need some stats on that.

Brina