Domestic Fox?

[BunnyMaz]

I thought it was 50 years? I've heard about these foxes before and I seem to remember it being more than 30 years. It was a while ago though so maybe I just forgot.

I've read a starting date of the experiment at around 1959, which does put it at just over 50 years. I think the time period is mentioned here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbcwD...eature=related

[RandallS]

I've read a starting date of the experiment at around 1959, which does put it at just over 50 years. I think the time period is mentioned here...

Fifty years still seems too short a time to be sure the animals are truly domesticated.

[LyricFox]

I thought it was 50 years? I've heard about these foxes before and I seem to remember it being more than 30 years. It was a while ago though so maybe I just forgot.

Thirty years is a rather short amount of time, but with a strict breeding program, I don't see it as entirely impossible. And if it was 50, then I think it even more likely they're truly domesticated. I think they were red foxes they used, which in my experience, are relatively tame if they grow up around humans. At least I've been able to get pretty close to some and they weren't showing any signs of aggression.

I would actually like to get a pet fox, although I haven't really read much on caring for them. It's one of those "someday" things. I'd want to wait until more people have them so I can have a better idea of what sorts of problems and challenges I'll run into. And I couldn't have a fox with the dog I have. She likes hunting things too much.

I was replying to someone who was using the 30 year mark.

And no. I disagree. 50 years is NOT a long time. And my guess is that the vast majority of people who this would appeal to have no idea the possible problems that could crop up.

[LyricFox]

Fifty years still seems too short a time to be sure the animals are truly domesticated.

It is.

I think what you have is a veneer of domestication. I wouldn't touch this without a whole lot more information.

[Katefox]

I was replying to someone who was using the 30 year mark.

And no. I disagree. 50 years is NOT a long time. And my guess is that the vast majority of people who this would appeal to have no idea the possible problems that could crop up.

Yes, sorry. That was me. I got the number wrong. My mistake. And I fully admit, I don't know really anything about domestication, so my assumption of them plausibly being domesticated in 30 years or 50 could really be off. I don't have enough information; I know this. On the other hand, though I say how it might be nice to have a pet fox, this doesn't mean (even if I had the money), I'm going to just go out and buy one without actually doing research on them.

[DomesticWitch]

I don't have an issue with the ethics. What I question is their breeding program. And yes, the Bengals are hybrids, but the problem still stands. You are still talking about domestication, and there are problems with F1 crosses (and some further down), and I'm just not seeing a difference here.

I would want to see a whole lot more about this breeding program and talk to people involved before I ever contemplated something like this.

Ohhh my comment about the ethics wasnt directed at you! It was just a general reply to the entire thread (quoting can cause problems sometimes lol!).

I agree with you - a lot more information would be needed regarding the breeding programme.

[LyricFox]

Ohhh my comment about the ethics wasnt directed at you! It was just a general reply to the entire thread (quoting can cause problems sometimes lol!).

I agree with you - a lot more information would be needed regarding the breeding programme.

I figured it was just a general note. That was sort of what my reply was, too. I know there are people who take exception to hybrids and this sort of domestication from an ethical standpoint. I don't really have any problem there.

I'm just thinking this has the makings for a very bad situation for these foxes and for people who end up splurging on a trendy animal. (And what's going to happen when these foxes get dumped in shelters for behavior issues? They're going to be put down. They'll be classified as wildlife and there won't be a reprieve because they're "tame Siberian foxes." This is a money making venture for those people, and they won't be paying the price for what happens.)

[Waterfall]

I'm just thinking this has the makings for a very bad situation for these foxes and for people who end up splurging on a trendy animal. (And what's going to happen when these foxes get dumped in shelters for behavior issues? They're going to be put down. They'll be classified as wildlife and there won't be a reprieve because they're "tame Siberian foxes." This is a money making venture for those people, and they won't be paying the price for what happens.)

That can be true for any animal that people get without knowing what they're getting into. You guys remember that Shiba Inu puppy cam a few years ago? About a year after that, there was an increase in the number of young Shibas being given up to shelters. At least in my area, although I wouldn't be surprised if it happened around the country. Although at least people will try to adopt out Shibas (but they don't do so well given their general not-so-friendly with strangers attitude) where with the foxes, they would probably get put down. Which is really sad. But I see it with all kinds of animals. And it all comes down to people not being smart about picking out a pet.

As for how domestic they really are, I think that is something that would become apparent as time goes on. I guess you could define domestic differently, but if the animal is living with humans and is being trained by humans and doesn't show aggression and comes from a line of such animals, I'd call it domestic. Wish I had one of my textbooks about this sort of thing. It'd probably have a very good definition as to what qualifies an animal as domestic.

[Etheric1]

That can be true for any animal that people get without knowing what they're getting into. You guys remember that Shiba Inu puppy cam a few years ago? About a year after that, there was an increase in the number of young Shibas being given up to shelters. At least in my area, although I wouldn't be surprised if it happened around the country. Although at least people will try to adopt out Shibas (but they don't do so well given their general not-so-friendly with strangers attitude) where with the foxes, they would probably get put down. Which is really sad. But I see it with all kinds of animals. And it all comes down to people not being smart about picking out a pet.

As for how domestic they really are, I think that is something that would become apparent as time goes on. I guess you could define domestic differently, but if the animal is living with humans and is being trained by humans and doesn't show aggression and comes from a line of such animals, I'd call it domestic. Wish I had one of my textbooks about this sort of thing. It'd probably have a very good definition as to what qualifies an animal as domestic.

Unfortunately, I think certain breeds can be a whole lot trickier to give a good home to. I can only guess how difficult it would be with an animal that is just recently domesticated.

The whole human factor can really affect a dog's behavior. I'm completely against breed banning, but I do think some animals can be a double edged sword when it comes to adopting them. Sadly, cute videos and or movies can really end up being negative for the animal. I'm not all that familiar with Shiba Inu dogs, but I am familiar with Akitas (which look similar but are MUCH bigger) and while I think that breed is very impressive and I want to adopt one, they sure as hell are not for everyone.

I guess it's a bit of a sore spot for me when I see just how many dogs end up in shelters or just flat out abandoned...

[LyricFox]

That can be true for any animal that people get without knowing what they're getting into.

Of course it is. And it's particularly true, I think when you're looking at a situation like this.

You guys remember that Shiba Inu puppy cam a few years ago? About a year after that, there was an increase in the number of young Shibas being given up to shelters. At least in my area, although I wouldn't be surprised if it happened around the country. Although at least people will try to adopt out Shibas (but they don't do so well given their general not-so-friendly with strangers attitude) where with the foxes, they would probably get put down. Which is really sad.

I showed and bred dachshunds for years, and I can tell you that any breed that breaks the top 10 AKC breeds list, any breed that has a movie come out with it as a main character, and any breed that is "trendy" is going to have huge problems.

You saw it with Dobermans in the 70s, and bully breeds now. And stroll through your local shelter some time and take a look at the number of Chihuahuas there. The shelters are full of them thanks to Beverly Hills Chihuahua.

And don't even get me started on breeds that really shouldn't be owned by 90% of the population.

But I see it with all kinds of animals. And it all comes down to people not being smart about picking out a pet.

Bingo.

As for how domestic they really are, I think that is something that would become apparent as time goes on. I guess you could define domestic differently, but if the animal is living with humans and is being trained by humans and doesn't show aggression and comes from a line of such animals, I'd call it domestic.

The thing is, there are still foxes in that breeding program that show extreme aggression. Now, you might bring in Maggie who is just as tame and loving as any other domesticated animal. But her brother Joey isn't tame and loving, and shows extreme aggression.

In my book, you don't have a domesticated species. You have something selectively bred for tameness, but that may not remain that way (there is going to be a prey drive here. 50 years won't get rid of it. 500 years might not.)

Wish I had one of my textbooks about this sort of thing. It'd probably have a very good definition as to what qualifies an animal as domestic.

There's something else here. Whether or not there's a textbook definition for domestication isn't going to mean a thing the first time one of these foxes treats a child like prey. That's part of my whole beef with this thing.

People see the word "domesticated" and "tame" and they forget there are going to be genetic instincts that do not change in 50 years of selective breeding. And that prey drive is going to be one of those things, and that's where a lot of my concern is.