Domestic Fox?

[KittyVel]

I'm also, for the most part, not against exotic animal ownership, but I do think people should have to have some training on how to deal with them, and prove they have the facilities necessary to care for one.

Yes, I completely agree.

[LyricFox]

http://sibfox.com/

So apparently, half a century ago, some Siberian scientist decided he wanted to try to recreate the process of domestication from wolves to dogs...but with 130 foxes that he rescued from a fur farm. Now, after 50 years of selective breeding based on the personalities and behaviors of the animals (selecting the most approachable and friendly of the kits to breed), they have gained piebald coats and some even have floppier ears! They are still definitely foxes, but they are now domesticated! These are called Siberian Foxes. What do you think? Is this ethical? Does this violate the foxes in any way?

Personally, I kind of want one. (If they weren't so expensive, I'd probably have one already.) I don't really see anything wrong with them shipping the foxes out to the U.S. as pets, particularly when I consider the U.S. laws concerning the ownership of exotic animals. Not to mention the information on vaccines and care that the website provides. And I can't really call the domestication of these foxes wrong, because that would be like telling our ancestors that they were wrong to domesticate the wolf. After all, we wouldn't have our faithful canine companions today without the domestication of the wolf (and the fennec fox!).

My personal take on this is I'd want to see a WHOLE lot more information than something from a site selling these animals. Because I have real serious doubts these animals are domesticated in the true sense of the word.

And then anyone who is interested in one should really talk to the cat folks who got involved with Bengal cats when they were first doing the crossbreeding. Find out what it's like to own an F1 cross.

Because I really doubt there's very much difference here.

[DomesticWitch]

My personal take on this is I'd want to see a WHOLE lot more information than something from a site selling these animals. Because I have real serious doubts these animals are domesticated in the true sense of the word.

And then anyone who is interested in one should really talk to the cat folks who got involved with Bengal cats when they were first doing the crossbreeding. Find out what it's like to own an F1 cross.

Because I really doubt there's very much difference here.

These arent hybrids though are they? It's not cross breeding but selective breeding. At least thats what I understood from the OP. I would have thought it would be easier to reach domestication with a hybrid than with selective breeding - half a century doesnt sound nearly enough time.

I'd want to interact with one of these foxes before even considering paying that amount of money.

They are absolutely beautiful animals - wonder why their coats have changed in such a way? Also, what breed of foxes are they? Havent time to read through the website but will tomorrow

I dont think its unethical at all, although it does add to the number of pets but judging by the small amount they will sell it wont have a knock on effect where the homeless animal stats are concerned.

[Katefox]

My personal take on this is I'd want to see a WHOLE lot more information than something from a site selling these animals. Because I have real serious doubts these animals are domesticated in the true sense of the word.

And then anyone who is interested in one should really talk to the cat folks who got involved with Bengal cats when they were first doing the crossbreeding. Find out what it's like to own an F1 cross.

Because I really doubt there's very much difference here.

Well, here is the website for the research project from which Sibfox gets its foxes, including videos of the foxes, and a list of publications about them. Perhaps that contains at least some of the information you would want to have about them?

I only know so much about them, but it seems possible they've been fairly domesticated by now. 30 years of breeding would be 15 or 20 generations of foxes, yes? Granted I don't know how long it generally takes to get a stable crossbreed with desirable traits, this seems a decent amount of generations to accomplish it.

[Raganhildis]

My personal take on this is I'd want to see a WHOLE lot more information than something from a site selling these animals. Because I have real serious doubts these animals are domesticated in the true sense of the word.

And then anyone who is interested in one should really talk to the cat folks who got involved with Bengal cats when they were first doing the crossbreeding. Find out what it's like to own an F1 cross.

Because I really doubt there's very much difference here.

I found an excerpt from the documentary I watched that may interest you. It talks about how these foxes were bred for tameness.

[BunnyMaz]

My personal take on this is I'd want to see a WHOLE lot more information than something from a site selling these animals. Because I have real serious doubts these animals are domesticated in the true sense of the word.

And then anyone who is interested in one should really talk to the cat folks who got involved with Bengal cats when they were first doing the crossbreeding. Find out what it's like to own an F1 cross.

Because I really doubt there's very much difference here.

My understanding is that these aren't crossbred or anything like that. There was never a domestic fox to cross breed with wild foxes in the first place, unlike bengal cats which are wild cats crossbred with domestic cats.

The foxes kept for the fur market in Russia still had a lot of wild left in them. Initially, the plan was to breed out the aggression to make them easier to farm. The scientists working on this would basically check the aggression, fear response and reaction to humans of all the foxes in a generation and breed very strictly from only, I think something like the 5% least aggressive, least fearful and most friendly. Then the very best out of that generation was set aside, and so on. The only thing selected for every generation was temperament, until they had a breed of fox that is entirely domesticated.

The markings are where it gets interesting. Breeding with selection being only for temperament, the foxes began to show traits common to many other domesticated animals. Muzzles and limbs became shorter, ears floppier, tails sometimes gained curls and the markings went from the natural red/brown of European foxes and silver/grey of Arctic foxes to a wide range of patterns similar to those seen in cattle and dogs. They also started barking and wagging their tails like dogs, something apparently not seen in wild foxes.

I've read up on the research stuff in the past, and apparently the sibfoxes share traits common with both domestic dogs and cats, and can get along well with either if introduced at a young age.

There are some youtube videos by people who own them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVoQJsh60_Y
This person has a few videos of their fox, but while their little guy looks like a sibfox they refuse to confirm where they got him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1G2y...eature=related
These are absolutely sibfoxes.

http://www.youtube.com/user/KingToss.../0/bomlvi5AXxQ
So are these. And they are ADORBZ

[RandallS]

....half a century doesnt sound nearly enough time.

Exactly what I'm thinking.

[LyricFox]

These arent hybrids though are they? It's not cross breeding but selective breeding. At least thats what I understood from the OP. I would have thought it would be easier to reach domestication with a hybrid than with selective breeding - half a century doesnt sound nearly enough time.

I'd want to interact with one of these foxes before even considering paying that amount of money.

They are absolutely beautiful animals - wonder why their coats have changed in such a way? Also, what breed of foxes are they? Havent time to read through the website but will tomorrow

I dont think its unethical at all, although it does add to the number of pets but judging by the small amount they will sell it wont have a knock on effect where the homeless animal stats are concerned.

I don't have an issue with the ethics. What I question is their breeding program. And yes, the Bengals are hybrids, but the problem still stands. You are still talking about domestication, and there are problems with F1 crosses (and some further down), and I'm just not seeing a difference here.

I would want to see a whole lot more about this breeding program and talk to people involved before I ever contemplated something like this.

[LyricFox]

Well, here is the website for the research project from which Sibfox gets its foxes, including videos of the foxes, and a list of publications about them. Perhaps that contains at least some of the information you would want to have about them?

I only know so much about them, but it seems possible they've been fairly domesticated by now. 30 years of breeding would be 15 or 20 generations of foxes, yes? Granted I don't know how long it generally takes to get a stable crossbreed with desirable traits, this seems a decent amount of generations to accomplish it.

Honestly? 30 years of breeding is not that long. I've known dachshund breeders who bred that long. You can set a lot with tight linebreeding and inbreeding, but you also have a host of other issues to consider.

I'm just seriously not convinced this is a "domesticated" animal.

[Waterfall]

Honestly? 30 years of breeding is not that long. I've known dachshund breeders who bred that long. You can set a lot with tight linebreeding and inbreeding, but you also have a host of other issues to consider.

I'm just seriously not convinced this is a "domesticated" animal.

I thought it was 50 years? I've heard about these foxes before and I seem to remember it being more than 30 years. It was a while ago though so maybe I just forgot.

Thirty years is a rather short amount of time, but with a strict breeding program, I don't see it as entirely impossible. And if it was 50, then I think it even more likely they're truly domesticated. I think they were red foxes they used, which in my experience, are relatively tame if they grow up around humans. At least I've been able to get pretty close to some and they weren't showing any signs of aggression.

I would actually like to get a pet fox, although I haven't really read much on caring for them. It's one of those "someday" things. I'd want to wait until more people have them so I can have a better idea of what sorts of problems and challenges I'll run into. And I couldn't have a fox with the dog I have. She likes hunting things too much.