How do the gods feel about White Supremacists?‏

[Vymir]

It's quite well known within the Pagan community that some fringes of Heathenry, particularly Asatru, Odinism and Wotanism have racist elements that often use the religion as an excuse for racism and bigotry. I was just wondering, in your experiences with the gods, how do they feel about White Supremacists/Nationalists/Separatists honoring them? Are they angry or upset in any way? I'd be interested to hear. It's something I've always wondered about.

[Stardancer]

It's quite well known within the Pagan community that some fringes of Heathenry, particularly Asatru, Odinism and Wotanism have racist elements that often use the religion as an excuse for racism and bigotry. I was just wondering, in your experiences with the gods, how do they feel about White Supremacists/Nationalists/Separatists honoring them? Are they angry or upset in any way? I'd be interested to hear. It's something I've always wondered about.

My very, very chilling UPG (and it's only UPG, so take it as you wish) when I asked Odin, was that He was proud of all his warriors (i.e. anyone who fought in his name).

[Lund]

It's quite well known within the Pagan community that some fringes of Heathenry, particularly Asatru, Odinism and Wotanism have racist elements that often use the religion as an excuse for racism and bigotry. I was just wondering, in your experiences with the gods, how do they feel about White Supremacists/Nationalists/Separatists honoring them? Are they angry or upset in any way? I'd be interested to hear. It's something I've always wondered about.

I am new to the forum, i am by no means a master haha. I have no answers, but i do believe the ignorance the White Supremacists show anger the gods. That is only my belief however.

[Maythe]

It's quite well known within the Pagan community that some fringes of Heathenry, particularly Asatru, Odinism and Wotanism have racist elements that often use the religion as an excuse for racism and bigotry. I was just wondering, in your experiences with the gods, how do they feel about White Supremacists/Nationalists/Separatists honoring them? Are they angry or upset in any way? I'd be interested to hear. It's something I've always wondered about.

My UPG is that it bothers us more than it bothers them. It's petty stuff, my anger over it seems to have been met with an element of bemusement and even amusement. Sort of 'why are you upset by the nonsense a group of people a long way from you are saying?' I think it matters hugely to Heathens that we ensure our 'public image' isn't tarnished by these morons, but I get the feeling that that's our problem. Humans believe all sorts of nonsensical and untrue crap, that some people divide people into subsets based on arbitrary cues and then behave badly towards one group or another is only one of the wierd things we do. Does that make sense?

[Lokabrenna]

It's quite well known within the Pagan community that some fringes of Heathenry, particularly Asatru, Odinism and Wotanism have racist elements that often use the religion as an excuse for racism and bigotry. I was just wondering, in your experiences with the gods, how do they feel about White Supremacists/Nationalists/Separatists honoring them? Are they angry or upset in any way? I'd be interested to hear. It's something I've always wondered about.

Hi Vymir,

I found an article that addresses racism in Heathenry that I think is quite informative (although it might be a little hard to read because of the italics): http://thegryphonsedge.wordpress.com...ru-and-racism/

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most white supremacists homophobic as well? It's been my experience that these prejudices often intersect (although that's not necessarily the case). If so, I don't think they'd like Vanatru in the first place, there seem to be a lot of gay males within our ranks.

It hardly needs to be said, but the following is my UPG/PCPG on the subject:

I'm kind of leaning towards the perspective that the gods don't care as much as we do. However, I have to wonder what Freyr would think of someone disrespecting his priests (who may very well have been gay, or at the very least, acted effeminately and cross-dressed. Oh dear, how very not hypermasculine of them!) I keep picturing a scenario where Freyja's like: "Sure you can hang out in Folkvangr--just leave the blacks and gays alone," and then watching as the white supremacist's head explodes.

Again, someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I heard an argument which compared the gods to white people and the jotuns to non-whites. I'm just going to throw this out there and say that Freyr would probably have a...bit of an issue...with someone putting down his wife like that. While we're at it, Njord married Skadi for a time, and they seemed to have settled their differences amicably. Actually, aren't most of the gods descended from jotnar anyways? Yeah, that argument doesn't work.

[Garm]

. I was just wondering, in your experiences with the gods, how do they feel about White Supremacists/Nationalists/Separatists honoring them? .

While being just more UPG, the impression I got from when I was on better terms with the old guy ran sort of like this

They had their day

They proved themselves to be losers

The failure of their idealogy to acheive anything in practical terms spares us the need to debate the ethics of it

[Mark C.]

It's quite well known within the Pagan community that some fringes of Heathenry, particularly Asatru, Odinism and Wotanism have racist elements that often use the religion as an excuse for racism and bigotry. I was just wondering, in your experiences with the gods, how do they feel about White Supremacists/Nationalists/Separatists honoring them? Are they angry or upset in any way? I'd be interested to hear. It's something I've always wondered about.

There is nothing in the lore that suggests “purity of blood” was important to the gods. Thor, Odin, Frey, etc all had children with giantesses; indeed Thor himself is the product of such a union. I don’t imagine they would take kindly to being told by mortals that their children are “mongrels”.

It’s also important to note that Skadi (also a giantess) becomes part of the Asgardian group so it would seem apparent that the gods are not keen on “separation by race” but “separation by deed”. Loki (also of giant stock) is another good example. He is not outlawed because of his “race”, but because of his deeds. If we follow the example of the gods, we will choose those around us on the basis of their character and deeds; not “race”. White supremacists obviously don’t do that.

There’s also the more basic issue that the gods value knowledge and wisdom. Anyone with any degree of education knows that skin pigmentation is irrelevance when it comes to meaningful human qualities. There is no scientific basis for their ideology. There is also nothing in the lore that supports their ideology. They therefore speak for the gods without ever having listened to what they said. The Havamal (words of Odin) makes it clear that pride in wilful ignorance is something to be looked upon with distain and hence the gods are sure to distain the wilful ignorance of the white supremacists.

The reason white supremacists latch on to the Heathen gods is because the see them as the gods of “the white man”. There is also the issue that Nazi’s took the mythology and twisted it for their own ends. I think J R R Tolkien, who did have a deep understand of European mythology, expressed it best):

“I have in this War a burning private grudge — which would probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler. Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light.”

While it is true these were the gods of the European people, there is exactly zero in the lore that would support their racist ideology and plenty that would show the gods where never perceived in the way they are presented by the white supremacists; as Tolkien rightly point out. I think it is this, above all else, that would annoy the gods. The white supremacists take their own views, wilfully ignore the true heritage of our gods, and twist the gods into being their “political puppets”.

As a side issue, it should be noted that everything that says that feel the gods are OK with racism is UPG based (like some of the above posts for example). And this is one of the great problems with UPG. UPG = Unsubstantiated PERSONAL gnosis. If we drop the “personal” and publicly out forth views as being “substantiated” on the basis of “personal experience” it is not UPG any more. I see it as individuals trying to overrule the lore; which is, after all, the heritage bequeathed to us by countless ancestors over thousands of years. How can individuals think their own thoughts to be superior to the collective experience and heritage of our ancestors? It strikes me as the height of arrogance to make claims that have no basis in the lore. If the gods are OK with racism, let’s put aside the UPG (which is not really UPG anyway) and explain where racism is to be found in the lore and why all the things that firmly point against it are to be ignored? It’s simply not there and that’s why the white supremacists need to, in Tolkein’s words, ruin, pervert and misapply heathen lore and heathen gods to “make their case”. As I say, I can’t imagine the gods take kindly to that.

Mark C.

[Maythe]

Just to clarify (not sure if you meant my post by 'above posts') I don't think the gods are 'OK' with it, more that it's a non-issue and that's reflected in the lore in the way you mention. It seems to me that 'race' is a fairly modern idea.

[Juniperberry]

It's quite well known within the Pagan community that some fringes of Heathenry, particularly Asatru, Odinism and Wotanism have racist elements that often use the religion as an excuse for racism and bigotry. I was just wondering, in your experiences with the gods, how do they feel about White Supremacists/Nationalists/Separatists honoring them? Are they angry or upset in any way? I'd be interested to hear. It's something I've always wondered about.

The gods aren't white. They're not human. Odin is the 'grandson' of Ymir and the earth is Ymir's body and the rivers are his blood. What sort of being would that make Odin, then? Why would he care about skin tone?

Heathenry isn't about good and bad. There isn't sin or a golden rule. The gods are intangible forces that we petition for favor to make our lives on earth easier. We don't petition them for a spiritual reward or to become spiritually evolved and reach some heaven. They don't judge us. We judge ourselves. We build our communities and create our laws. We build our own luck and reputation. In the past this was more heavily influenced by what would bring favor and in turn, more peace and better survival.

To put it simply, the gods won't grant victory to a multiracial army against a racial army because the former is 'good'- they'll grant them victory because they have a larger community, more offerings, and better luck- which makes them a more valuable relationship to keep in terms of gift-giving and destiny-shaping. It's practical.

(Now, if the multiracial didn't give offerings and honor to the gods than they have no relationship to the gods and wouldn't be in favor, despite their numbers.)

Racist sects do themselves a disfavor, its no skin off the gods' noses. And the more that heathen racists are decried and ostracized the more their luck and reputation falls in the community and the less honor they can give. It all works out.

That's one facet, anyway. *shrug*

An aside: This is why you can't reconstruct the literal germanic laws of heathen culture. But you can look at the philosophy behind it and apply it to modern society.