How would you respond to this?

[Lokabrenna]

Maybe it's just me, because my crap tolerance is maxed out lately, but I'd probably end up suggesting that they go outside and play a nice long game of hide and go f*** yourself. And then later think of all kinds of nice, rational things to say that might have actually had a positive impact on their opinion of paganism, when it's too late.

*giggles*

Fortunately for you, I'm told I am WAAAAAY too nice for my own good...and I received a crash course on "how to have civil discussions about religion" from my religious studies courses in university!

[GreentreeTarot]

As for pagans can believe anything and that pagans can tailor their beliefs, I'd say it's all too common. This is noting that pagan is an umbrella term, etc. There do seem to be most groups people don't put a lot of effort into creating a religion that requires a lot of effort.

I'm not aware of any significant number of pagans that have religious dietary laws; religious clothing laws or similar laws that restrict or command them to do or not do some action. Yeah, there are lots of vegan or vegetarian pagans, but as far as I can see it's not part of a coherant religious philopsophy.

I don't see any large number of pagans that have religious principals that they then apply to the rest of their lives such as politics or lifestyle. Lots of them have political principals, but very few base their political outlook / actions on their religious principals.

I can't speak for most pagans, as there aren't many where I live and I haven't interacted with others much; but my religious philosophy certainly applies to the rest of my life. I believe that humans have the right to do whatever they wish, so long as they are not harming another or infringing on another's right to do so, and that informs the way I vote. I also believe that animals have the innate right to live their lives as close to nature as if they had been born in the wild; but I don't believe it's wrong to kill them for food, as another wild animal would - this informs my diet and food purchases. I believe that it is my responsibility not to interfere in the lives of my fellow humans for good or for ill without their express permission, and this informs my social interactions. To be fair, my religion is rather self-selected, and this makes doing my religious duties easier, but I wouldn't say it's entirely easy. Sometimes, I want to eat a cheap steak. Sometimes, I want to tell my friend she's being an idiot when she cries on my shoulder about the same guy for the twentieth time. But doing those things is against my moral and religious code; and so in general, I don't do them - and if I do, I tend to feel guilty about it.

Now obviously, you weren't saying that all pagans self-select in such a way as to make their religious duties as easy as possible; but I think the number of people who do this is smaller than you'd think. Generally, people who gravitate towards Pagan religions do so because their personal beliefs don't mesh with the religion they were raised in; and so it's natural they would self-select their new religious beliefs to better reflect their personal beliefs.

[sailor]

I also believe that animals have the innate right to live their lives as close to nature as if they had been born in the wild; but I don't believe it's wrong to kill them for food, as another wild animal would - this informs my diet and food purchases. I believe that it is my responsibility not to interfere in the lives of my fellow humans for good or for ill without their express permission, and this informs my social interactions. To be fair, my religion is rather self-selected, and this makes doing my religious duties easier, but I wouldn't say it's entirely easy. Sometimes, I want to eat a cheap steak.

So what are the requirements for the meat you eat? If somebody wanted to be part of your religion, what would they look for at the butcher shop or supermarket?

[Lokabrenna]

So what are the requirements for the meat you eat? If somebody wanted to be part of your religion, what would they look for at the butcher shop or supermarket?

Are you speaking to GreentreeTarot in particular or Pagans in general?
I think part of what's appealing about Paganism is that, while individuals might have dietary restrictions, no one tells the group as a whole "You must eat organic meat/be vegetarian/be vegan or you're not a TRUE Wiccan/Asatruar/[insert label here]." Despite what some might say.

I would say that, ideally, I'd like to eat organic meat and as much locally-grown produce as possible. In practice, I live with my parents, and organic meat (scratch that, meat in general) is expensive. I don't eat a lot of pork or beef, but that has more to do with preferring the taste of chicken to any sort of dietary restriction. Even if I did live on my own, I have a disability which prevents me from making regular trips to the local farmer's market on a regular basis (without having to make twenty trips, that is).

So, all things considered, the grocery store is my best bet (and one of those delivery services that will actually deliver them to my place). I suppose I COULD go and live off the land, but....no...the fact is, I'm a city kid, country air stinks, and I doubt I could handle a few hours of farming, that doesn't mean that I can't be smart about purchasing my food at the grocery store. I might even be able to manage growing my own tomatoes or something. I'm just one person, I don't need that many tomatoes...

[sailor]

Are you speaking to GreentreeTarot in particular or Pagans in general?
I think part of what's appealing about Paganism is that, while individuals might have dietary restrictions, no one tells the group as a whole "You must eat organic meat/be vegetarian/be vegan or you're not a TRUE Wiccan/Asatruar/[insert label here]." Despite what some might say.

I would say that, ideally, I'd like to eat organic meat and as much locally-grown produce as possible. In practice, I live with my parents, and organic meat (scratch that, meat in general) is expensive. I don't eat a lot of pork or beef, but that has more to do with preferring the taste of chicken to any sort of dietary restriction. Even if I did live on my own, I have a disability which prevents me from making regular trips to the local farmer's market on a regular basis (without having to make twenty trips, that is).

So, all things considered, the grocery store is my best bet (and one of those delivery services that will actually deliver them to my place). I suppose I COULD go and live off the land, but....no...the fact is, I'm a city kid, country air stinks, and I doubt I could handle a few hours of farming, that doesn't mean that I can't be smart about purchasing my food at the grocery store. I might even be able to manage growing my own tomatoes or something. I'm just one person, I don't need that many tomatoes...

The post was to GreentreeTarot. He says he has religious restrictions on the meat he eats.

But let's tackle your situation. So, you have a religious restriction that the meat that you eat must be organic? And you are a convert to your form of paganism or the founder of your form of paganism? And there isn't a large movement of people who follow a slightly different form of paganism that permits non-organic meat? And yet you still eat non-organic meat?

Or is your preference for organic meat just a personal preference and has no religious basis?

[Lokabrenna]

The post was to GreentreeTarot. He says he has religious restrictions on the meat he eats.

But let's tackle your situation. So, you have a religious restriction that the meat that you eat must be organic? And you are a convert to your form of paganism or the founder of your form of paganism? And there isn't a large movement of people who follow a slightly different form of paganism that permits non-organic meat? And yet you still eat non-organic meat?

Or is your preference for organic meat just a personal preference and has no religious basis?

It's purely a personal preference. If someone came up to me and said: "You aren't a real Pagan if you eat/don't eat X." I think I'd...laugh in their faces.

I'm led to understand that gods might say to their followers "I don't want you eating X," but as far as proscribing certain foods for a group, it doesn't happen. Unless, say, one joins a group that believes that Wiccans should be vegetarian, but if they do that they're probably already vegetarian in the first place.

[GreentreeTarot]

So what are the requirements for the meat you eat? If somebody wanted to be part of your religion, what would they look for at the butcher shop or supermarket?

My main requirement is free-range meat. I'm not terribly concerned about organic (that's more of a personal preference), but free-range meat is a must. In my opinion and in the eyes of my religion, traditional factory farming is morally wrong, and to support that is also morally wrong. I lean towards organic as being better for the environment, but I (and therefore my religion ) am not comfortable making any absolute value judgments in that area.

[Shadow]

Out of curiosity, how would you respond to the assertion that Pagans "can believe anything they choose to believe" or that "being a Pagan isn't demanding because you can just tailor your beliefs to suit yourself" (therefore, every Pagan faith is a "false religion")?

I am currently in the beginning stages of working out my beliefs, spiritual practices etc and I have to argue the idea the 'tailoring your beliefs to suit yourself' isn't demanding. I am sure there are many people who treat it like a pick-&-mix counter and select things because they like the idea, without actually understanding the concepts they are rejecting. For me, and for many others, however it takes a lot of study, reflection, meditation etc to really pin down beliefs and practices.

Unlike a number of religions, f'ex Christianity, the beliefs aren't all neatly packaged with no thought required on the part of the practitioner (not that I am saying all Christians put no thought into their religion). I have to make a concerted effort to understand a belief, concept or practice before deciding whether to incorporate it or reject it.

[Jenett]

Or is your preference for organic meat just a personal preference and has no religious basis?

Thing is, for me at least, lots of stuff has a religious basis - which is what happens when part of the religious ethics framework is "Everything is connected, think about how what you do fits in with that."

For me, that definitely affects my food choices - but at the same time, it doesn't absolutely rule them.

I am out somewhere, and I need to eat, or my health and energy is going to take a dive for the day (or lead to my being, say, unsafe to drive) I'll eat what there is. But if I'm in a position where I get choice (like my grocery shopping), my ethics inform that choice into buying meat and dairy from animals that have/had happy lives in good surroundings.

Likewise, driving has an effect on the world around me in various ways (adding pollution, contributing to oil consumption, all of that.) But as someone with a bunch of chronic medical foo, walking is not always a sustainable option for me. So I drive a well-maintained car that gets good gas mileage, and work towards walking when I can. All of that's consistent with my religious ethics ("Stuff is connected, don't forget that") but again isn't an absolutely rule.

(I do also have a couple of absolute rules in my religion, but they're mostly related directly to initiatory oaths, and while they inform some day to day activities - like what I do and don't talk about on this forum, for example - it's a relatively minor effect.)

[CinnamonBrooms]

I wasn't sure where to put this, but it cropped up during an interfaith discussion I was having elsewhere, so this seems as good a place to put it as any.

Out of curiosity, how would you respond to the assertion that Pagans "can believe anything they choose to believe" or that "being a Pagan isn't demanding because you can just tailor your beliefs to suit yourself" (therefore, every Pagan faith is a "false religion")?

I would challenge whomever said that to try their hand at learning/figuring out what their path is.
Christianity is easy, there is always (IME) someone, namely a preacher/priest, there to tell you what to believe/how to worship/who to follow.
Yes I suppose there are pagans who 'tailor their beliefs to suit themselves' but aren't their christians who do the same? And on the flip side aren't some paths of paganism very strict, as there is in christianity?