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Author Topic: Christopagan, Christian Witch?  (Read 16857 times)

Shadowlark

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Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« on: December 23, 2013, 09:55:50 pm »
Hi.

As you guys know, I am new to the site. And I have something I'd like to discuss.

Christo-paganism, Christian Witchery. Most would say that the two cannot be blended together, but I am curious to learn why some Christian Witches would say otherwise. the bible condemns practice of magic countless times, so I feel like you'd be contradicting yourself being a Christian Witch. Now I am not trying to downtalk this path, I am just expressing my confusion about it. Personally, even though I can't conform to mainstream Christianity, I still love Jesus, I've experienced Him in my life a lot and He has done a lot of healing in me and others I know. I've had answered prayers and gained insights from the Bible.

Not too long ago I met a woman who is a Witch, but she told me she has a personal relationship with Jesus. If I could understand how this is possible, that would be great. What would a Christian Witch say to the Bible verses that condemn magic and witchcraft? How would it work being a Christian and a Pagan/Witch?

I can't get myself to deny Christ. I could write a separate post on why that is so, but it's too much to explain here. My problem is, I love Jesus and the message of it, but there are so many things I can't agree with in the Christian religion. For one, I am bisexual and I can't get myself to compress my attraction to women as well as men. It's who I am and I am proud of it. But Christianity says homosexuality is an abomination and it's unnatural and it has no place for a Christians. There are also some things I've read that were very brutal..like the mass murders done by God and the countless laws He layed unto the Israelites that I didn't understand, like circumcision or no tattoos or i could go on. (not trying to downtalk Christianity either, i'm just being real right now, and these are my opinions/thoughts)

I also feel very connected to Paganism/Wicca/earth based spiritualities. I like working with elements, crystals, etc, and I am also drawn to a Goddess..not just a God. I feel like the two Divine beings, male and female, make up the All..if that makes sense. I don't feel like doing rituals is evil. But I feel like I'm the rope in tug a war, being pulled to Christ one way, and being pulled to Paganism/Wicca/earth based spirituality another way.

I must add that I have learned a bit on how Christianity has Pagan roots. Some aspects of Christianity are in fact, Pagan. Ancient gods were turned into saints. That's just one example.

Anyways, a part of me feels like being a Christian Witch is possible, but I need to understand their responses to Biblical scriptures and how they go about practicing magic and loving Jesus at the same time. Deep down I have this feeling that this path might be calling to me. But I don't want to get into anything with a blindfold, I want to understand this uncommon but rather intriguing path.

thanks

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Re: Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2013, 10:29:40 pm »
Quote from: Shadowlark;133798
Hi.

Not too long ago I met a woman who is a Witch, but she told me she has a personal relationship with Jesus. If I could understand how this is possible, that would be great. What would a Christian Witch say to the Bible verses that condemn magic and witchcraft? How would it work being a Christian and a Pagan/Witch?

Anyways, a part of me feels like being a Christian Witch is possible, but I need to understand their responses to Biblical scriptures and how they go about practicing magic and loving Jesus at the same time. Deep down I have this feeling that this path might be calling to me. But I don't want to get into anything with a blindfold, I want to understand this uncommon but rather intriguing path.

thanks

 
Simple answer.
Pagan is an umbrella term, not a religion or sect.
Not all Witches practice magic.
There are Christians who pratice magic, (some may call it such, so may not).
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Re: Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2013, 11:24:18 pm »
Quote from: Shadowlark;133798
Christo-paganism, Christian Witchery.


These are not necessarily identical terms and you seem to be listing them as if they are. A Christopagan relates to Jesus or other Christian deities/demigods in a pagan manner or in conjunction with pagan deities, while a Christian witch engages in some manner of witchcraft.

Quote
Not too long ago I met a woman who is a Witch, but she told me she has a personal relationship with Jesus. If I could understand how this is possible, that would be great. What would a Christian Witch say to the Bible verses that condemn magic and witchcraft? How would it work being a Christian and a Pagan/Witch?

 
Which Bible verses are troubling you, and which translation are you working from? That's probably the best place to start.
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Re: Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2013, 11:33:22 pm »
Quote from: Shadowlark;133798
Hi.

As you guys know, I am new to the site. And I have something I'd like to discuss.

Christo-paganism, Christian Witchery. Most would say that the two cannot be blended together, but I am curious to learn why some Christian Witches would say otherwise. the bible condemns practice of magic countless times, so I feel like you'd be contradicting yourself being a Christian Witch. Now I am not trying to downtalk this path, I am just expressing my confusion about it. Personally, even though I can't conform to mainstream Christianity, I still love Jesus, I've experienced Him in my life a lot and He has done a lot of healing in me and others I know. I've had answered prayers and gained insights from the Bible.

Not too long ago I met a woman who is a Witch, but she told me she has a personal relationship with Jesus. If I could understand how this is possible, that would be great. What would a Christian Witch say to the Bible verses that condemn magic and witchcraft? How would it work being a Christian and a Pagan/Witch?

I can't get myself to deny Christ. I could write a separate post on why that is so, but it's too much to explain here. My problem is, I love Jesus and the message of it, but there are so many things I can't agree with in the Christian religion. For one, I am bisexual and I can't get myself to compress my attraction to women as well as men. It's who I am and I am proud of it. But Christianity says homosexuality is an abomination and it's unnatural and it has no place for a Christians. There are also some things I've read that were very brutal..like the mass murders done by God and the countless laws He layed unto the Israelites that I didn't understand, like circumcision or no tattoos or i could go on. (not trying to downtalk Christianity either, i'm just being real right now, and these are my opinions/thoughts)

I also feel very connected to Paganism/Wicca/earth based spiritualities. I like working with elements, crystals, etc, and I am also drawn to a Goddess..not just a God. I feel like the two Divine beings, male and female, make up the All..if that makes sense. I don't feel like doing rituals is evil. But I feel like I'm the rope in tug a war, being pulled to Christ one way, and being pulled to Paganism/Wicca/earth based spirituality another way.

I must add that I have learned a bit on how Christianity has Pagan roots. Some aspects of Christianity are in fact, Pagan. Ancient gods were turned into saints. That's just one example.

Anyways, a part of me feels like being a Christian Witch is possible, but I need to understand their responses to Biblical scriptures and how they go about practicing magic and loving Jesus at the same time. Deep down I have this feeling that this path might be calling to me. But I don't want to get into anything with a blindfold, I want to understand this uncommon but rather intriguing path.

thanks
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Is this the verse your talking about?
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Shadowlark

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Re: Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2013, 11:50:25 pm »
Quote from: Jack;133807
These are not necessarily identical terms and you seem to be listing them as if they are. A Christopagan relates to Jesus or other Christian deities/demigods in a pagan manner or in conjunction with pagan deities, while a Christian witch engages in some manner of witchcraft.


 
Which Bible verses are troubling you, and which translation are you working from? That's probably the best place to start.

 
Yeah I figured there was a difference but I knew they were similar so I listed them both because both of them seem to be a contradiction. Also I am not most educated on the subject so I apologize for merging both paths like they're the same.

Yes that verse in Exodus is one of them. Here are some others that I have read.


Exodus 22:18 ESV

“You shall not permit a sorceress to live.

Leviticus 19:31 ESV

“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:27 ESV

“A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.”

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV

“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Leviticus 20:6 ESV /

“If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.

Revelation 21:8 ESV /

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Galatians 5:19-21 ESV

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



How does someone go about being a Christian Witch, reading all of these scriptures?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2013, 11:55:07 pm by Shadowlark »

Jack

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Re: Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2013, 12:28:39 am »
Quote from: Shadowlark;133810
Exodus 22:18 ESV

“You shall not permit a sorceress to live.


"Sorceress" has a wide variety of possible translations. "Poisoner" or "evil magician" are also options.

I'll note that Exodus 22:16-17 says:

"If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins."

Do you adhere to that rule too, or do you consider that particular part of the old testament to have been fulfilled by Jesus's coming?

Quote
Leviticus 19:31 ESV

“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:27 ESV

“A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.”

Leviticus 20:6 ESV /

“If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.


Aside from translation issues, it's entirely possible to be pagan or a witch and not indulge in any mediumship or necromancy.

Also in Leviticus:

You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard.

You shall not make any cuts on your body for the dead or tattoo yourselves.

For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

Do you worry about keeping all the rules in the Old Testament or just these? Do you keep kosher? Do you wear poly-cotton blends?

Quote
Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV

“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.


I sincerely hope no one on this forum is burning their children. :)

Quote
Revelation 21:8 ESV /

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”


Well, I've told a lie or two in my day anyway, so I'd be right out. But I tend to bow to the theory that Revelations is actually about the fall of Rome and, well, Rome's fallen, so we're good.

Quote
Galatians 5:19-21 ESV

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 
Ugh, Paul.

How familiar are you with the creation of the New Testament? You know the early Church basically picked the bits it liked best, and left out the ones it didn't find to match its viewpoint, right?

Well, I don't care for Paul. Since I've never been a very good Catholic, this seems all right and proper to me.

It's entirely possible and theologically consistent for a Christian witch or pagan to be so without practicing any of the more specific terms named in the old testament, like necromancy and mediumship and even divination. It's also possible for one to believe that Jesus's coming fulfills ALL the fiddly rule bits in the old testament, not just the ones that people find personally annoying like poly-cotton blends and haircuts and pork. It's possible for a Christian to believe that what's relevant is the bits with Jesus in, especially the things Jesus is supposed to have said, whether that's the synoptic gospels or the Book of John or the Book of Thomas or the Gnostic Gospels or, hell, Thomas Jefferson's version of the Bible.

So that's a couple of ways a Christopagan or Christian witch might explain themselves.
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Re: Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2013, 12:58:38 am »
Quote from: Jack;133813


So that's a couple of ways a Christopagan or Christian witch might explain themselves.

 
Good points. I also read this article on religioustolerance, and it went into depth of the magic that was practiced in the bible, and the translations of the words of the things that were condemned. check it out

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl3.htm

all I know is, I am very confused. I honestly feel like I am having a hard time letting go of my past religion and I'm attempting to hold onto it. It's hard because my dad and grandpa think I'm a Christian and they went on about how God is going to come back and most of us will not go through anything good when that happens. I didnt want to tell them I wasn't Christian, because I was a Christian not too long ago, and I didnt want them preaching at me and worrying about my afterlife. To me it seems like there are aspects of the Christian faith that have stuck with me, that I agree with, and that have made a good change in my life. But I dont think i'll ever be able to accept Christianity as a whole because I have too many disagreements and I dont want to lie to myself for a promise of heaven.

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Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2013, 03:33:33 am »
Quote from: Shadowlark;133810
Yeah I figured there was a difference but I knew they were similar so I listed them both because both of them seem to be a contradiction. Also I am not most educated on the subject so I apologize for merging both paths like they're the same.

Yes that verse in Exodus is one of them. Here are some others that I have read.


Exodus 22:18 ESV

“You shall not permit a sorceress to live.

Leviticus 19:31 ESV

“Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:27 ESV

“A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.”

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV

“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Leviticus 20:6 ESV /

“If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.

Revelation 21:8 ESV /

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Galatians 5:19-21 ESV

Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.



How does someone go about being a Christian Witch, reading all of these scriptures?

In terms of the OT references in particular, some biblical scholars argue that these prohibitions came about in order to keep the power with the priests and prophets. Only they were supposed to be able to tell the future, communicate with the deity, etc. The existence of magic workers was a threat to the hierarchical power of the priests. There are similar contextual issues with the NT. It's always worth starting with the context, rather than simply lifting verses out of the bible as 'proof texts'.

You might be interested in looking into Christian forms of magic. Traditionally, hoodoo is Christian, and so are some forms of pow-wow.

I don't think there's necessarily any contradiction in Christian witchcraft/magic, or Christo-Paganism. The latter is theologically difficult to do well, though, in my opinion. But I know of many people, from Quaker Pagans to UU Pagans to Christian-influenced hermetic magicians to Pagan-influenced Gnostics, who manage to reconcile things.
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Re: Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2013, 03:46:30 am »
Quote from: Shadowlark;133798
... and the countless laws ... like circumcision or no tattoos or i could go on...

Yeah, well I don't have an explanation for circumcision, but the bit on tattoos is a booboo.  From what I've gathered the original word is closer in meaning to 'ritual branding', which makes more sense in full context: the verse in question prohibits the practice of scarification, specifically when it occurs as part of mourning or remembrance rituals.  Which brings me to my next point: much of Leviticus consists of liturgical laws, such as how to properly render an animal sacrifice, that are simply not applicable to Christian practice.  

Dunno 'bout you, but when I read the Bible I tend to focus on the Gospels and specifically on the words attributed to Christ.  Lazy like that.  (And, like Jack... not fond of Paul.)  Also, I look at the text more as myth and metaphor than as God's Inerrant (factual) Word. Imagine, if you will, sitting in the crowd while Jesus tells the parable of the Good Samaritan.  Imagine that one guy who raises his hand and interrupts to ask Jesus if this story actually happened, was the Samaritan a real person?
I imagine Jesus looking at that guy with a WTF is wrong with you? look in his eye and saying (in Aramaic of course) "Dude.  Missed the fucking point."  He who has ears let him hear.

But I digress.

Sound heretical?  Sure, to the mainstream.  But as Naomi J pointed out, there are Christian hermeticists and Christian gnostics, as well as other schools of esoteric Christian thought.  But I'd say that once you step outside the mainstream the reconciliation is easier than you'd think.

Couple of good reads for you:

Jesus Through Pagan Eyes: Bridging Neopagan Perspectives with a Progressive Vision of Christ by Rev Mark Townsend, formerly CoE, now OBOD.
The first half is Townsend's words and (IMO, excellent) exploration of Jesus as a man as well as a mythical figure.  The second is a collection of essays on Jesus from a handful of big name pagans; interesting, but not as useful.

Also, ChristoPaganism: An Inclusive Path by R & J Higgenbotham.  I haven't gone through this entire book, and I do have a minor quibble in that the authors write "Paganism is..." or "Pagans do..." as if all of Pagandom were one unified (and apparently Wicc-ish) body.  Minor quibble aside, I've read about half of it, and would say it's well done and useful.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 03:49:34 am by MadZealot »
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Re: Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2013, 04:35:00 am »
Quote from: MadZealot;133822
And, like Jack... not fond of Paul.

 
Seriously, fuck Paul.

And not in the enjoyable way.
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Re: Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2013, 04:53:01 am »
Quote from: Shadowlark;133814
Good points. I also read this article on religioustolerance, and it went into depth of the magic that was practiced in the bible, and the translations of the words of the things that were condemned. check it out

http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl3.htm

all I know is, I am very confused. I honestly feel like I am having a hard time letting go of my past religion and I'm attempting to hold onto it. It's hard because my dad and grandpa think I'm a Christian and they went on about how God is going to come back and most of us will not go through anything good when that happens. I didnt want to tell them I wasn't Christian, because I was a Christian not too long ago, and I didnt want them preaching at me and worrying about my afterlife. To me it seems like there are aspects of the Christian faith that have stuck with me, that I agree with, and that have made a good change in my life. But I dont think i'll ever be able to accept Christianity as a whole because I have too many disagreements and I dont want to lie to myself for a promise of heaven.

 
One thing that would probably be really helpful for you, would be to learn more about different approaches to Christianity. A number of the points you make aren't universal to Christianity, and some are not even true of the majority of Christians/Christian denominations. (I'll also note, though, that it's possible your dad and grandpa would consider them 'not Christian' - some of the branches that follow the ideas you mention also consider any denomination or church that doesn't agree to be nonChristian. You would know better than we would about whether that's an issue in your case or not.)

As well, being able to combine Christianity with either paganism or witchcraft in a way that works is often dependent on a more thorough knowledge of both/all than is necessary to someone just practicing one of them.

The OCRT site you link is a pretty good place to start exploring just how much variety there is within Christianity.

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Re: Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2013, 05:41:50 am »
Quote from: Jack;133823
Fuck Paul.

 
Fuck Paul.

Also: I must spread rep around before giving more to Jack.  Bummer.
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Re: Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2013, 02:45:42 pm »
Quote from: Jack;133823
Seriously, fuck Paul.

And not in the enjoyable way.

 
I actually developed a certain amount of sympathy for Paul after reading Countryman's Dirt, Greed, and Sex, if anyone's interested in developing sympathy for the man. ;)
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Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2013, 12:07:43 pm »
Quote from: Darkhawk;133864
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Re: Christopagan, Christian Witch?
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2013, 07:56:31 pm »
Quote from: Shadowlark;133798
Hi.

As you guys know, I am new to the site. And I have something I'd like to discuss.

Christo-paganism, Christian Witchery. Most would say that the two cannot be blended together, but I am curious to learn why some Christian Witches would say otherwise. the bible condemns practice of magic countless times, so I feel like you'd be contradicting yourself being a Christian Witch. Now I am not trying to downtalk this path, I am just expressing my confusion about it. Personally, even though I can't conform to mainstream Christianity, I still love Jesus, I've experienced Him in my life a lot and He has done a lot of healing in me and others I know. I've had answered prayers and gained insights from the Bible.

Not too long ago I met a woman who is a Witch, but she told me she has a personal relationship with Jesus. If I could understand how this is possible, that would be great. What would a Christian Witch say to the Bible verses that condemn magic and witchcraft? How would it work being a Christian and a Pagan/Witch?

I can't get myself to deny Christ. I could write a separate post on why that is so, but it's too much to explain here. My problem is, I love Jesus and the message of it, but there are so many things I can't agree with in the Christian religion. For one, I am bisexual and I can't get myself to compress my attraction to women as well as men. It's who I am and I am proud of it. But Christianity says homosexuality is an abomination and it's unnatural and it has no place for a Christians. There are also some things I've read that were very brutal..like the mass murders done by God and the countless laws He layed unto the Israelites that I didn't understand, like circumcision or no tattoos or i could go on. (not trying to downtalk Christianity either, i'm just being real right now, and these are my opinions/thoughts)

I also feel very connected to Paganism/Wicca/earth based spiritualities. I like working with elements, crystals, etc, and I am also drawn to a Goddess..not just a God. I feel like the two Divine beings, male and female, make up the All..if that makes sense. I don't feel like doing rituals is evil. But I feel like I'm the rope in tug a war, being pulled to Christ one way, and being pulled to Paganism/Wicca/earth based spirituality another way.

I must add that I have learned a bit on how Christianity has Pagan roots. Some aspects of Christianity are in fact, Pagan. Ancient gods were turned into saints. That's just one example.

Anyways, a part of me feels like being a Christian Witch is possible, but I need to understand their responses to Biblical scriptures and how they go about practicing magic and loving Jesus at the same time. Deep down I have this feeling that this path might be calling to me. But I don't want to get into anything with a blindfold, I want to understand this uncommon but rather intriguing path.

thanks

 

Does anyone know if Jesus actually said anything about witches/witchcraft? I know he said that all the old laws were defunct and you basically had to believe in him and do good and love everyone. It was generally people who are NOT the son of a god or even claim to be inspired by him who write the rest of the new testament so I don't know why people act like that is gods word?

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