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Author Topic: Curiosity vs. Call  (Read 4223 times)

veggiewolf

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Curiosity vs. Call
« on: November 06, 2013, 02:25:37 pm »
Since becoming a pagan years ago, I've noticed that there seems to be an inclination amongst pagans to look at certain things from a mystical point-of-view rather than a mundane one.  For example, we often get questions on TC about whether the sighting of certain animals (flocks of crows, colonies of bats, herds of deer, etc.) is a sign of something that applies to the viewer, or whether thinking about something on a routine basis can be considered a call.

I know I've annoyed more than one poster with my "from a mundane standpoint" responses to such questions, and I also know that I have a very difficult time wrapping my head around the idea that animal sightings, especially in the habitat where said animals live, are signs of something, or that a topic running through my mind is anything more than curiosity about the topic.  

If I see a bunch of rabbits hopping around my yard (which I do on a routine basis), my first thought tends to be "Oh, rabbits!" rather than to wonder if the rabbits represent something I should be doing or thinking.  If a topic crosses my mind (like the recent post I made on Dark Elves in the A&H SIG), I take it as a sign of personal curiosity and I try to learn more about it.

So, what inclines some people toward seeing the mystical or spiritual in everything, and others to not?  Should we lean one way or the other, or is there a middle ground?  What do you tend to do?
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stephyjh

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Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2013, 02:38:59 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;128553
Since becoming a pagan years ago, I've noticed that there seems to be an inclination amongst pagans to look at certain things from a mystical point-of-view rather than a mundane one.  For example, we often get questions on TC about whether the sighting of certain animals (flocks of crows, colonies of bats, herds of deer, etc.) is a sign of something that applies to the viewer, or whether thinking about something on a routine basis can be considered a call.

I know I've annoyed more than one poster with my "from a mundane standpoint" responses to such questions, and I also know that I have a very difficult time wrapping my head around the idea that animal sightings, especially in the habitat where said animals live, are signs of something, or that a topic running through my mind is anything more than curiosity about the topic.  

If I see a bunch of rabbits hopping around my yard (which I do on a routine basis), my first thought tends to be "Oh, rabbits!" rather than to wonder if the rabbits represent something I should be doing or thinking.  If a topic crosses my mind (like the recent post I made on Dark Elves in the A&H SIG), I take it as a sign of personal curiosity and I try to learn more about it.

So, what inclines some people toward seeing the mystical or spiritual in everything, and others to not?  Should we lean one way or the other, or is there a middle ground?  What do you tend to do?

Personally, when I hear hoofbeats, I like to rule out horses before assuming unicorns (or horse gods). The only time I've assumed it was a sign was when crows that knew me, knew I was not a threat, ignored the offered fries and attacked me. Signs are *supposed* to be extraordinary.
A heretic blast has been blown in the west,
That what is no sense must be nonsense.

-Robert Burns

Materialist

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Re: Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2013, 02:43:02 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;128553

So, what inclines some people toward seeing the mystical or spiritual in everything, and others to not?  Should we lean one way or the other, or is there a middle ground?  What do you tend to do?


I think the belief in omens comes from the unwillingness to recognize that life is meaningless and humans mere hairless simians who will become extinct in obscurity allowing squid to evolve into space faring conquerors. Personally,  I have no time for such distractions, I'm much too busy cataloging the lifeforms in my area, keeping tabs on diversity and population trends to look out for omens.

Tana

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Re: Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2013, 03:30:19 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;128553

So, what inclines some people toward seeing the mystical or spiritual in everything, and others to not?  Should we lean one way or the other, or is there a middle ground?  What do you tend to do?


I think this is often a case of Honey-Moonitis in the beginning of one's path.
You are not sure, you are fascinated and you just wonder about ALL the things. It takes some time to learn the difference between: 'Oh, hey Crow, nice to see you, have good day.' And: 'Oh fuck, something is not right here.' Usually it takes years. Been there, done that.

Being new to a new path/believe, new to magic and things usually ranging in the supernatural scale of one's previous life, causes insecurity. Which causes over-sharing of things you wonder about, because you need outside confirmation. And it also causes overrating of events or symbols, because you are just not yet able to valuate them correctly.

So all in all, it's mostly a passing thing that belongs to the birth pangs of walking a new path.
\'You had to repay, good or bad. There was more than one type of obligation.
That’s what people never really understood.….Things had to balance.
You couldn’t set out to be a good witch or a bad witch. It never worked out for long.
All you could try to be was a witch, as hard as you could.\'
Terry Pratchett \'Lords and Ladies\'

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Aranel

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Re: Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2013, 03:55:54 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;128553
Since becoming a pagan years ago, I've noticed that there seems to be an inclination amongst pagans to look at certain things from a mystical point-of-view rather than a mundane one.  For example, we often get questions on TC about whether the sighting of certain animals (flocks of crows, colonies of bats, herds of deer, etc.) is a sign of something that applies to the viewer, or whether thinking about something on a routine basis can be considered a call.

I know I've annoyed more than one poster with my "from a mundane standpoint" responses to such questions, and I also know that I have a very difficult time wrapping my head around the idea that animal sightings, especially in the habitat where said animals live, are signs of something, or that a topic running through my mind is anything more than curiosity about the topic.  

If I see a bunch of rabbits hopping around my yard (which I do on a routine basis), my first thought tends to be "Oh, rabbits!" rather than to wonder if the rabbits represent something I should be doing or thinking.  If a topic crosses my mind (like the recent post I made on Dark Elves in the A&H SIG), I take it as a sign of personal curiosity and I try to learn more about it.

So, what inclines some people toward seeing the mystical or spiritual in everything, and others to not?  Should we lean one way or the other, or is there a middle ground?  What do you tend to do?

 
For me, it's only a sign when it's batshit crazily out of the ordinary.

When I once mentioned to some pagans (at a group thing) that I see red kites where I work, I got told by one that red kites must be my spirit animal (it was so nice of them to assume that my beliefs involve spirit animals!) because red kites are super rare! Ummm... No. There's red kites where I work because they're spreading out from Wales and it's perfect habitat for them.
Now, if I work up tomorrow morning and found several red kites sitting in my garden then yeah, I might start to think it could be a sign but I would first need to check around for any other explanation for them being there, such as carrion. (I live over 20 miles from where I work and I work in the middle of the countryside which is mainly heathland, woodland and sheep farming, whereas I live on the edge of a large town surrounded by arable farming. I expect to start seeing solitary red kites where I live in the next few years but not several breeding pairs like I do at work. )

Yeah, that's a pretty long winded way of saying that for me, it's not a sign unless it is really out of the ordinary and I do facepalm at people who take perfectly ordinary animal behaviour as some sort of sign.

Just thought of another thing. Hares are pretty important to me, spiritually. The only time I've ever seen a hare was one running across the Uffington White Horse. Was it a bloody amazing moment? Yes. Do I think it was a sign? Nope. I was just very lucky to see one and to see it there. Just an added bonus to an awesome trip.

Valentine

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Re: Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2013, 04:16:42 pm »
Quote from: veggiewolf;128553
Since becoming a pagan years ago, I've noticed that there seems to be an inclination amongst pagans to look at certain things from a mystical point-of-view rather than a mundane one.  For example, we often get questions on TC about whether the sighting of certain animals (flocks of crows, colonies of bats, herds of deer, etc.) is a sign of something that applies to the viewer, or whether thinking about something on a routine basis can be considered a call.

I know I've annoyed more than one poster with my "from a mundane standpoint" responses to such questions, and I also know that I have a very difficult time wrapping my head around the idea that animal sightings, especially in the habitat where said animals live, are signs of something, or that a topic running through my mind is anything more than curiosity about the topic.  

If I see a bunch of rabbits hopping around my yard (which I do on a routine basis), my first thought tends to be "Oh, rabbits!" rather than to wonder if the rabbits represent something I should be doing or thinking.  If a topic crosses my mind (like the recent post I made on Dark Elves in the A&H SIG), I take it as a sign of personal curiosity and I try to learn more about it.

So, what inclines some people toward seeing the mystical or spiritual in everything, and others to not?  Should we lean one way or the other, or is there a middle ground?  What do you tend to do?

 
I think some of this has to be regional, or urban/rural.  I grew up in a rural area where animals were always present, as were rapid weather changes, so it's never really occurred to me to think deer or crows coming through the yard had to mean something other than that there were deer and crows in the yard, because they were always there.  That all must seem more remarkable if you grow up in a city or a suburb.

Some of it may have to do with a new, fresh way of noticing.  I used to be with someone who grew up in the suburbs and never really thought to differentiate different kinds of, say, birds, or trees.  They were just "birds." Or "trees."  And if you're suddenly entering a way of thinking where, wow!  there are different kinds of birds! and they all mean different things! and you're kind of fresh at seeing the world in that kind of detail, you're going to experience a lot of things sticking out in a way that's new and kind of full of wonder and also prone to misinterpretation.

Some of it's that thing especially for a recent convert where, well, conversion usually comes with/from a process of searching for meaning, and that means you're still in a place where one of your primary ways of navigating the world is searching for meaning everywhere you look.

Me, I'm sort of at a place where, well, it's all meaningful, it's all magic, it's all symbol, and it's all, simultaneously, mundane.  A crow is a little package of meat and bone largely concerned with eating and making little crows, and it's an interesting animal that's an important part of an interconnected ecosystem, and it's Crow, and it's a symbol of what crows mean in various cultures, and it's a little bit co-essential with various crow deities simultaneously, and it's just a crow, all at once.  Everything's magic and everything's not and it's about angles of seeing and context and what is needed when.
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
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Re: Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2013, 04:23:36 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;128565

Me, I'm sort of at a place where, well, it's all meaningful, it's all magic, it's all symbol, and it's all, simultaneously, mundane.  A crow is a little package of meat and bone largely concerned with eating and making little crows, and it's an interesting animal that's an important part of an interconnected ecosystem, and it's Crow, and it's a symbol of what crows mean in various cultures, and it's a little bit co-essential with various crow deities simultaneously, and it's just a crow, all at once.  Everything's magic and everything's not and it's about angles of seeing and context and what is needed when.


*nod-nod-nod* This.
\'You had to repay, good or bad. There was more than one type of obligation.
That’s what people never really understood.….Things had to balance.
You couldn’t set out to be a good witch or a bad witch. It never worked out for long.
All you could try to be was a witch, as hard as you could.\'
Terry Pratchett \'Lords and Ladies\'

Confuzzled and proud. :p

RandallS

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Re: Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2013, 05:44:07 pm »
Quote from: stephyjh;128555
Signs are *supposed* to be extraordinary.

THIS. If it isn't truly extraordinary, my first thought is it is mundane. If someone is trying to communicate with me, they are going to have to be direct and blunt about it.  Note that it's different when I an looking for a sign because even normal stuff can be a sign in one's inner symbol set. But if I'm not looking for/expecting a sign, it takes that truly extraordinary to get me to think beyond mundane explanations.
Randall
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Tana

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Re: Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2013, 05:58:56 pm »
Quote from: RandallS;128573
THIS. If it isn't truly extraordinary, my first thought is it is mundane. If someone is trying to communicate with me, they are going to have to be direct and blunt about it.  Note that it's different when I an looking for a sign because even normal stuff can be a sign in one's inner symbol set. But if I'm not looking for/expecting a sign, it takes that truly extraordinary to get me to think beyond mundane explanations.


Looking for signs, or asking for some, never really worked/works for me.
But I would argue the extraordinary a bit. I'd rather say a sign has to be meaningful in this moment in space and time. Which can even happen to something, that would be just mundane only an hour later.

It's complicated. (Why does that sound like a FB relationship status now? Check box 'Your relationship with the Supernatural World' - Oh, it's complicated.) :D:
\'You had to repay, good or bad. There was more than one type of obligation.
That’s what people never really understood.….Things had to balance.
You couldn’t set out to be a good witch or a bad witch. It never worked out for long.
All you could try to be was a witch, as hard as you could.\'
Terry Pratchett \'Lords and Ladies\'

Confuzzled and proud. :p

quarks

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Re: Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 06:49:34 pm »
Quote from: Tana;128560
I think this is often a case of Honey-Moonitis in the beginning of one's path.


This.  As someone still discovering her path, I yearn for signs.  I want that pat on the back that says I'm going in the right direction.  I know, however, that it is unlikely that I will ever get one.  For me, making the conscious choice to follow this path because I love the Deities is more important than making myself believe that I am special enough to receive signs.  Do I want signs?  Yes, but I'm not holding my breathe.  My wanting to feel special doesn't outway mundane explanations.

Aisling

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Re: Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2013, 06:56:45 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;128565
Me, I'm sort of at a place where, well, it's all meaningful, it's all magic, it's all symbol, and it's all, simultaneously, mundane.  A crow is a little package of meat and bone largely concerned with eating and making little crows, and it's an interesting animal that's an important part of an interconnected ecosystem, and it's Crow, and it's a symbol of what crows mean in various cultures, and it's a little bit co-essential with various crow deities simultaneously, and it's just a crow, all at once. Everything's magic and everything's not and it's about angles of seeing and context and what is needed when.

 
Essentially this and especially the portion in bold.

For me, there is this type of multiplicity in everything.  Everything has multiple levels of meaning and context.  A big chunk of my path has been learning how to discern what meaning is most important in a given moment and context.

"The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -
Neil deGrasse Tyson

Valentine

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Re: Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2013, 07:13:12 pm »
Quote from: Tana;128574
Looking for signs, or asking for some, never really worked/works for me.
But I would argue the extraordinary a bit. I'd rather say a sign has to be meaningful in this moment in space and time. Which can even happen to something, that would be just mundane only an hour later.

It's complicated. (Why does that sound like a FB relationship status now? Check box 'Your relationship with the Supernatural World' - Oh, it's complicated.) :D:

 
It's that thing again!  Everything is extraordinary.  Everything is ordinary.  A sparrow is miraculous and it is surrounded by the miraculous, and from another angle none of it is miraculous at all.  We participate in the extraordinary constantly.  I mean, right now, by writing, I'm turning an event--a thought, an utterance--into an object, a written word.  (Leave aside all of you reading it!)  It's complicated.
"Let be be finale of seem." - Wallace Stevens, "The Emperor of Ice-Cream"
"There isn't a way things should be.  There's just what happens, and what we do."
- Terry Pratchett, "A Hat Full of Sky"

Tana

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Re: Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2013, 07:17:52 pm »
Quote from: Aisling;128585
Essentially this and especially the portion in bold.

For me, there is this type of multiplicity in everything.  Everything has multiple levels of meaning and context.  A big chunk of my path has been learning how to discern what meaning is most important in a given moment and context.


*nod*
It's like, yes everything is meaningful, but it is not always important.
\'You had to repay, good or bad. There was more than one type of obligation.
That’s what people never really understood.….Things had to balance.
You couldn’t set out to be a good witch or a bad witch. It never worked out for long.
All you could try to be was a witch, as hard as you could.\'
Terry Pratchett \'Lords and Ladies\'

Confuzzled and proud. :p

veggiewolf

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Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2013, 07:32:06 pm »
Quote from: Tana;128587
*nod*
It's like, yes everything is meaningful, but it is not always important.

Absolutely.
Fluid Morality - my spiritual blog
Eating Monsters - my mental health blog

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"I hate magical thinking in my magic." - Darkhawk
"...a baseball club; a soccer unkindness; a hockey murder; a football team..." - Cecil, Welcome to Night Vale

Viv

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Re: Curiosity vs. Call
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2013, 07:54:13 am »
Quote from: stephyjh;128555
Signs are *supposed* to be extraordinary.

 
What stephyjh said!!

And it seems to me that some newbies to Paganism have an overwhelming desire to see signs and omens everywhere they look in an attempt to validate their developing beliefs.

I always look for a logical answer for everything, first. So maybe I'm just not spiritual enough to get the whole omen, whoo-hoo sign thingy. Then again, my deity speaks to me via meditation and doesn't need to send animals or undecipherable signs to get my attention.
"As every cat lover knows, nobody owns a cat." ~Ellen Perry Berkeley

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