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Author Topic: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead  (Read 3287 times)

Aisling

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Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« on: October 26, 2013, 09:03:06 pm »
In response to someone asking who I honor at Samhain, I replied "everyone who has influenced my life, my outlook, and my path".  Then I realized that this is not true.

Not everyone who has influenced me gets honored on Samhain.  If the truth be told, some of the most profoundly influential people in my life were absolute jerks.  These are individuals who taught me by their examples how not to treat people, how not to relate to the world, how I do not want to live my life.  I've learned the value of kindness, compassion, and love, not so much from the people who embody these qualities, but from those who do not.  My awareness the sanctity of life has been deepened by witnessing the actions of those who would disregard it.

This brings up the question of what to do with the dishonorable dead on Samhain.  Should they be recognized or ignored?  Should the good that they unintentionally caused be remembered? Should I honor those who were on the receiving end of their bad behaviors instead?  

Has anyone else considered this and/or found a way to handle it in your own practice?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 09:03:47 pm by Aisling »

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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2013, 09:18:41 pm »
Quote from: Aisling;127033
In response to someone asking who I honor at Samhain, I replied "everyone who has influenced my life, my outlook, and my path".  Then I realized that this is not true.

Not everyone who has influenced me gets honored on Samhain.  If the truth be told, some of the most profoundly influential people in my life were absolute jerks.  These are individuals who taught me by their examples how not to treat people, how not to relate to the world, how I do not want to live my life.  I've learned the value of kindness, compassion, and love, not so much from the people who embody these qualities, but from those who do not.  My awareness the sanctity of life has been deepened by witnessing the actions of those who would disregard it.

This brings up the question of what to do with the dishonorable dead on Samhain.  Should they be recognized or ignored?  Should the good that they unintentionally caused be remembered? Should I honor those who were on the receiving end of their bad behaviors instead?  

Has anyone else considered this and/or found a way to handle it in your own practice?

 
Oh gosh, I'm not even sure where to start.

I was involved with ADF on and off for about three years and to a much lesser and more recent extend Kemetic Orthodoxy, and both religions featured a heavy, heavy emphasis on ancestor veneration. KO more than ADF; I could get away with a more or less nominal toast to the Mighty Dead during ADF ritual, but you really can't sidle around the Akhu in Kemetic Orthodoxy. A lot of members in both groups asked those same questions you're asking, about ancestors who weren't all that mighty or shining to begin with.

It seems to me the same way I can't and don't want to honor every god of every pantheon who ever existed, I can't and don't want to honor every human being who contributed to my bloodline or in some way influenced me. I certainly don't have time to build meaningful relationships with them all, even if it's only for this one night out of the year.

If you're asking "but do I have to honor this person?" then I think that's a pretty reliable answer for you. The answer is no, you don't. (Unless for some reason your religion absolutely requires that you honor every ancestor ever in which case, when do you have time to sleep?) You also don't need to justify your choices to anyone else. The same way that we can cut unhealthy and dangerous people out of our lives while alive, we can enforce those same boundaries after death. Just because someone influenced or even gave you life does not make you beholden to them.

That said, is there something about past relationships that's still causing you pain? Maybe it's something you should bring up with your gods and ancestors. Samhain might be a good time for trying to put your own ghosts to rest and all.

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Aisling

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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2013, 09:59:13 pm »
Quote from: Sage;127045
That said, is there something about past relationships that's still causing you pain?

 
No, the question isn't rooted in personal pain over past relationships at all.  It's more of a philosophical wondering about how to deal with those who might have had unintentional positive influence on me while, on the whole, were still absolute jerks. It's not a question of "do I have to honor them on Samhain", but one of "is this appropriate to my practice and if so, how do I handle it"?  

Recognizing the sources that made me who I am is an important facet to my beliefs.  This doesn't mean that I'm bound to honor every one of my ancestors and every non-related individual I've come across. However, if someone has done something that has greatly shaped my path, I do need to find ways to acknowledge that influence. I'm questioning whether my recognition needs to be of the person as a whole or simply of the influence that they had.

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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2013, 10:10:08 pm »
Quote from: Aisling;127067

Recognizing the sources that made me who I am is an important facet to my beliefs.  This doesn't mean that I'm bound to honor every one of my ancestors and every non-related individual I've come across. However, if someone has done something that has greatly shaped my path, I do need to find ways to acknowledge that influence. I'm questioning whether my recognition needs to be of the person as a whole or simply of the influence that they had.

 
Well, that *is* a question of "Is this appropriate for Samhain?" too.

My practice regularly honours my ancestors - known, unknown, kin, kith, kindred, people of like interest, people I have learned things from.

My *Samhain* practice, however, is about my beloved dead: the people I loved who I miss. How many people can I directly connect with in one ritual? Which of those relationships is appropriate for Samhain?

For me, a ritual dealing with "I learned from this person, but its' complicated" doesn't generally fit in Samhain. It might fit at another ritual - just as "I want to make my peace with a situation with this still-alive person where things got complicated" would not be a suitable thing for Samhain probably, but would be appropriate at other times of year.

Partly because my Samhain ritual? Already doing a bunch of ritual heavy lifting, and it does not need more things. And in part because I think coming to peace with the complicated parts deserves its own time and space, not to be wedged in with a bunch of other kinds of things going on.
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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2013, 10:19:08 pm »
Quote from: Aisling;127033
Has anyone else considered this and/or found a way to handle it in your own practice?

 
This is a difficult one for me to answer. It hasn't really come up in my own practice, because the people of questionable integrity weren't people I actually knew in life, and so my interaction with them is pretty limited; I make sure their names are repeated, they get water, and that's about it.

That said, I have some living family members and when they pass... on the one hand, I already want to keep my distance from them. "Honoring" them once they've died feels almost hypocritical of me. On the other hand, I've always believed that death grants a better sense of perspective, and might make them more aware of the pain/damage that they've caused, and make them more amenable to mending bridges.

I think I would have to take them on a case by case basis, really. Feel out, either through divination or otherwise, whether they have any awareness of the damage of their actions, any remorse for the pain they inflicted. If so, I would probably be willing to invite them to my Samhain supper, but otherwise, they can take from the outdoor offerings for the wandering dead.
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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2013, 11:09:29 pm »
Quote from: Aisling;127033

This brings up the question of what to do with the dishonorable dead on Samhain.  Should they be recognized or ignored?  Should the good that they unintentionally caused be remembered? Should I honor those who were on the receiving end of their bad behaviors instead?  

Has anyone else considered this and/or found a way to handle it in your own practice?

 
I'm by no means an expert when it comes to ancestor worship. I've only ever done very basic things and it's actually something I've been trying to do more, so my post is as much my opinion as it is a if you think I'm wrong please feel free to point that out and being interesting in learning about other perspectives.

I think that what you do would be up to you. When it comes to people who have hurt us a lot in the past, regardless of whether they're alive or dead, we have a multitude of choices on what to do about it and it depends on our specific personalities, what they've done, and how dealing with past pain and even trauma works for us.

In that sense, some people may actually want to go out and honour those ancestors, in the hopes that they've perhaps changed in the afterlife (which also depends on your belief system, I guess) or as a way of acknowledging the mark they've left on their lives for better worse. For other people it may be much harder and I don't think that someone who is struggling with trauma or anything like that should feel forced to pay homage to people who have hurt them or abused them. If you've been hurt then it's probably more important to heal. If someone (living) hurts me, I may eventually talk to them again depending on what they've done but I'll need some time to figure out how I feel about this person and what happened.

I think that perhaps being firm about your boundaries and even asking the other Dead to give you a hand in keeping negative people at bay might be helpful here. Though again, take this with a grain of salt because it's what I would do... the people in my family who are horrible that I know of are still alive and well, so I don't really know.

Aisling

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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2013, 11:22:45 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;127080
My *Samhain* practice, however, is about my beloved dead: the people I loved who I miss. How many people can I directly connect with in one ritual? Which of those relationships is appropriate for Samhain?

 
Because of the nature of much of my spiritual work, Samhain isn't limited to just my beloved dead, nor is it a single ritual. It's a multi-faceted series of rituals, remembrances, prayers and offerings spread over several hours.  

I should probably clarify that I'm not thinking of inviting them to the supper I hold for my beloved dead.  That guest list is rather short and tightly controlled, as I generally keep my house a by-invitation-only space as far as spirits are concerned.  If I didn't, I would never sleep again.  

If I were to do something for the not-so-beloved dead in question, it would be part of a separate recognition, one that isn't quite so deeply focused or intimate as the supper.  I thought about including them in  my annual roll call (literally, a reading of names of those I wish to remember, but who aren't invited for dinner).  However, I get a little squicky at the thought of adding their names to that particular list, as it really is an honor roll of sorts.

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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2013, 11:34:31 pm »
Quote from: Juni;127088
I think I would have to take them on a case by case basis, really. Feel out, either through divination or otherwise, whether they have any awareness of the damage of their actions, any remorse for the pain they inflicted. If so, I would probably be willing to invite them to my Samhain supper, but otherwise, they can take from the outdoor offerings for the wandering dead.

 
In this case, none of them would be invited to supper, not even if there was awareness and remorse on their parts.  I do outdoor offerings as well and that might be a way of handling it that allows remembrance without inviting them for a personal visit.

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Aisling

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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2013, 11:54:15 pm »
Quote from: Medulla;127099
I'm by no means an expert when it comes to ancestor worship.

Neither am I.  I acknowledge them as a part of my Samhain work but that's the extent of it.  Close family members are another story.

Quote from: Medulla;127099
I think that what you do would be up to you. When it comes to people who have hurt us a lot in the past, regardless of whether they're alive or dead, we have a multitude of choices on what to do about it and it depends on our specific personalities, what they've done, and how dealing with past pain and even trauma works for us.

 
I realize, reading this, that I need to clarify that, with one or two exceptions, the people in question did not hurt me directly and their actions were directed toward other people.  However, they pushed me to really contemplate what shape my own life needs to take and therein lies their influence.  

Quote from: Medulla;127099

In that sense, some people may actually want to go out and honour those ancestors, in the hopes that they've perhaps changed in the afterlife (which also depends on your belief system, I guess) or as a way of acknowledging the mark they've left on their lives for better worse.

 
I'm fairly confident that death does not, if you'll excuse the expression, make angels from assholes. I'm not holding my breath that this particular group will have changed with their passing.  Acknowledging the influence is really what this comes down to... and whether the acknowledgment should be for the individuals or for the influence itself.

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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2013, 01:38:20 am »
Quote from: Aisling;127106

I realize, reading this, that I need to clarify that, with one or two exceptions, the people in question did not hurt me directly and their actions were directed toward other people.  However, they pushed me to really contemplate what shape my own life needs to take and therein lies their influence.


Ah, ok. I think what I said still stands though. I don't know what exactly happened since it's obviously a personal thing, but if it's something that absolutely trespasses upon your boundaries then I don't think you'd be forced to worship them. I mean, I wouldn't invite relatives I don't like to hang out with me, you know? Obviously, like I said, this depends on the person and how they cope with whatever happened. Some people would probably find it easier to address those issues with the deceased in question while for others that would be extremely difficult if not straight up impossible.

Sorry if this counts as hijacking, but this reminds me of something I've been thinking about. I eventually want to work more with my ancestors in general instead of only those closest to me. For many of them, I only have names and perhaps a few anecdotes that were passed down the family, the more I go back in time, the less I know about the specifics of what they did. I'm willing to bet that all of have a few ancestors who weren't very nice people while alive but it may be harder to specifically not-invite them, because unlike our experiences with closer family members, we don't know much about how they interacted with people at home. I wonder what the proper etiquette in these situations is if we're doing something for ancestors in general, do we specify it's only meant for ancestors that did less negative things or ask for help from nicer ancestors in sort of helping us keep an eye on the door?


Quote from: Aisling;127106

I'm fairly confident that death does not, if you'll excuse the expression, make angels from assholes. I'm not holding my breath that this particular group will have changed with their passing.  Acknowledging the influence is really what this comes down to... and whether the acknowledgment should be for the individuals or for the influence itself.

 
Oh, for sure. I don't know if I think that either, I think that if people change after death then it's something that would happen over a long time if at all. The exceptions for me would be people who may have regretted it before their deaths without anyone knowing or some such, though it's always hard to tell who falls within that category. Like I said, this probably depends on the belief system. I know people who believe the Dead become very different by virtue of having a different perspective and going through the process of dying. I didn't know what you believed in, which is why I added the bit about it depending on your belief system. I didn't mean to sound like I was making assumptions about you or your beliefs about the afterlife.

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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2013, 06:20:34 am »
Quote from: Aisling;127033
Has anyone else considered this and/or found a way to handle it in your own practice?


It may not be in the spirit of the holiday, but for me there's the "thanks for dying, asshole" aspect of Dia de los Muertos for me.  Death is something we all have in common.  It's the great equalizer.  So in the service of honoring Capital "D" Death, I also like to honor the work it's done.  Especially eliminating people who make other people's lives miserable (of which I'm often one).  The aforementioned assholes don't get a place on my altar, but they do get a place in my coal-black heart.

Every.  Year.

Brina

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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2013, 06:53:47 am »
Quote from: Aisling;127033

Has anyone else considered this and/or found a way to handle it in your own practice?

 
Yes, since working with and honoring the Ancestors is one of the few things I do, even when I slack with everything else.

Daily I honor all the ancestors of my bloodline, by keeping a light for them. All of them. And I am aware that there must have been horrible individuals among them. But they were, all of them and therefore I am.

To the water offering I invite all Ancestors of kin, kith and kind (stole that one from you Jenett, loved the way to put it) who wish me well. Only those.

Being aware that people can be horrible, can do horrible things is being aware that we ourselves can do horrible things. Accepting that awful individuals have been in our ancestry, we accept that possibility of being awful in ourselves.

Like you say Aisling, even a bad example can teach us something. Sometimes you even have good or bad in the same person. My grandmother taught me through positive and negative things and helped me to realize important things for my life.

And on top of all there is this tiny task (at least on my path) of Redeeming the Ancestors. The 'how' is pretty difficult since there are so many ways and different problems to approach. It can be done by forgiving, by accepting, by doing the opposite, by not doing the same, by following another example... and so on.

So yes, they are all part of me. I am - as their descendent - have a duty towards them all.
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That’s what people never really understood.….Things had to balance.
You couldn’t set out to be a good witch or a bad witch. It never worked out for long.
All you could try to be was a witch, as hard as you could.\'
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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2013, 08:59:21 am »
Quote from: Aisling;127033
This brings up the question of what to do with the dishonorable dead on Samhain.  Should they be recognized or ignored?

 
In Scottish lore, the Host is largely made up of the dishonorable dead. This is a malevolent spirit army led by Nicnevin the Queen of Eplhame. The Host comes out on Samhain and flies around shooting fairy darts at people. If you get hit by a fairy dart, you die sometime in the next year. The spirit warriors who make up the Host are supposed to be soldiers who died dishonored- cowards, war criminals and so on. People feared the Host and used charms to ward them off- they didn't venerate them. It's possible some people left offerings to placate them and encourage them to go elsewhere, but I'm not sure.

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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2013, 09:33:41 am »
Quote from: yewberry;127129
It may not be in the spirit of the holiday, but for me there's the "thanks for dying, asshole" aspect of Dia de los Muertos for me.  Death is something we all have in common.  It's the great equalizer.  So in the service of honoring Capital "D" Death, I also like to honor the work it's done.  Especially eliminating people who make other people's lives miserable (of which I'm often one).  The aforementioned assholes don't get a place on my altar, but they do get a place in my coal-black heart.

Every.  Year.

Brina


"Spirit of the holiday"... pun intended?  Much of what I do is outside the normal purview of either Samhain and Dia de los Muertos, so I'm not too worried about keeping with tradition.  
 
Interesting way to look at it. I've approached honoring Death for easing the suffering of those who were in physical or mental torment.  It hadn't occurred to me to take it from the angle of ending suffering by eliminating the person causing the pain.  

I think I need to chew on this idea a bit more, because I several half-formed thoughts about how this could translate into a part of my practice.

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Re: Samhain and The Dishonorable Dead
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2013, 09:01:56 pm »
Quote from: Tana;127131
Daily I honor all the ancestors of my bloodline, by keeping a light for them. All of them. And I am aware that there must have been horrible individuals among them. But they were, all of them and therefore I am.

 
I agree with this.  They have paid with their life and are to be respected, at least as one's ancestors.  You do not disrespect the dead, no matter how horrible.

You do not have to like them or make up stories about how good they were, but you at least acknowledge them as part of your people.
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