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Author Topic: Yahweh as one of a pantheon  (Read 4794 times)

Faemon

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Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« on: October 18, 2013, 09:15:22 am »
I came across this YouTube series today. This young man was a devout Christian, until... well, the series takes us through the tent pegs that were uprooted in extreme detail, about 22 episodes of ten minutes each. The boss battle theme from Final Fantasy VII scores the 14th video, which I think is awesome. After that personal story...

...comes a visually represented and voiceovered summary of A History of God by Karen Armstrong.

The gods of the Babylonian-Caanite pantheon that eventually gave rise to The Big G are all represented by iPod shadowblocks of, like, Asherah dancing or Baal doing Kung Fu.

Watch here:

This was an idea that I picked up on before but kept peripheral to my awareness. But the way it's portrayed here got me to wonder about my own henotheism, and our communal henotheistic normativity (if any Pagan community has such a thing as normativity) with patrons and patronesses.


When does that become supremacy?

When did the scales tip so that Yahweh the grouchy brother became The Lord Above All? What would stop that from happening here with us?
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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2013, 01:32:34 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;125873
I came across this YouTube series today. This young man was a devout Christian, until... well, the series takes us through the tent pegs that were uprooted in extreme detail, about 22 episodes of ten minutes each. The boss battle theme from Final Fantasy VII scores the 14th video, which I think is awesome. After that personal story...

...comes a visually represented and voiceovered summary of A History of God by Karen Armstrong.

The gods of the Babylonian-Caanite pantheon that eventually gave rise to The Big G are all represented by iPod shadowblocks of, like, Asherah dancing or Baal doing Kung Fu.

Watch here:

This was an idea that I picked up on before but kept peripheral to my awareness. But the way it's portrayed here got me to wonder about my own henotheism, and our communal henotheistic normativity (if any Pagan community has such a thing as normativity) with patrons and patronesses.


When does that become supremacy?

When did the scales tip so that Yahweh the grouchy brother became The Lord Above All? What would stop that from happening here with us?

 
Well, if the Bible's any indication, proto-Judaism was henotheistic (though of the form "the rest of Them are real, but don't worship Them") during the period described roughly in Exodus/Leviticus/Deuteronomy, and this became a matter of conflict during the period described in Kings and Jeremiah.  (Of course, all of these were compiled and edited more than once after they were written, and they were all written after the events they describe, and each has a different angle--for instance, the book Jeremiah is particularly polemical in condemning henotheism in favor of monotheism thanks to its political context.)  The supremacy starts in theory with the Exodus story--whose worldview is essentially "there are many real Gods, but this God picked us and then rescued us and made a covenant with us, and He had to go to war with other Gods to do it, and He beat them, because He is mightiest."  But it's still "our people's God is more powerful than the other Gods," not "the rest of Them aren't real/are evil."

Some historians suggest a lot of the big shift follows the period referred to as the Babylonian Captivity, along these lines:  the Jews, such as they were, had their homes in post-Canaan retaken by polytheist neighbors, and a large portion of the community ended up under the rule of polytheists in Babylon, and a LOT of them weren't happy about it.  So there was some considerable bitterness ("We made nice with our neighbors' Gods and this is what we get?" "These Gods' peoples are treating us poorly, and maybe They're as bad as Their human devotees!") plus a new investment in holding onto a strong internal identity ("We don't do things their way.  Look at what they've done to us.  We have to stick together and we have to get home.") and a desire for their own God to essentially do battle with these foreign Gods and free them, which of course frames things as a matter of conflict.  (Remember that while the slavery-in-Egypt story from Exodus may not be factual--there's very little suggestion that things were literally as depicted in that book from Egypt, and Egypt wrote everything down--by this time, people seem to be already treating it like it was more or less how things happened.  So it was a possible thing for the God of the Hebrews to, say, intervene and rescue His captive people from the Gods of their foes.)

(The Babylonian Captivity, incidentally, is the period when a lot of the Hebrew Bible was properly compiled into a form recognizable as the set of books we have today.  It's why the book Genesis has a bit of the Epic of Gilgamesh in it, the bit with all that flooding, because things got complicated over in Babylon.  It's also why we have the famous Psalm about weeping by the rivers of Babylon, aching for home, forced into upsetting customs by foreign powers.)

When many Jews finally were able to leave Babylon, they came back to a Canaan where those of their cousins who had stayed behind had integrated somewhat with their more powerful polytheist neighbors, and many of them were horrified--they'd suffered so much holding onto their Jewish identity, for years, trapped far away surrounded by strangers, and they'd idealized the place they'd left, only to return to find their long-lost relatives not keeping the faith as they understood it.  (Theoretically, the prophet Jeremiah was writing during this period.  He records a history of the period before the Captivity, but heavily colored by a desire to frame that historical henotheism as corrupt and terrible, in order to shore up how he wanted the community in his own time, post-Captivity, to behave.)  Some hardliners sought to reconcile their communities, those that had stayed and those returning, by purging "foreign" elements and forging a more unified identity.  It's around here that we see some accounts of henotheistic practices in-community--like Jews participating in the cult of Asherah or Ba'al--being actively targeted, with henotheists being publicly hounded, places of worship being destroyed, etc.

After that, the artifact evidence is pretty thin on the ground for a while.

(All of this is a different story in Islam; before Muhammad, popular Arabic religion--depending on who you read--was either polytheistic or henotheistic, with the most powerful of the Gods being the one eventually identified with Allah.  Muhammad's task was getting his fellow Arabs to drop the worship of all of the rest of the pantheon in favor of just the one, which he also had to establish as being identical with the God of the Jews and Christians.  Needless to say, it was not easy, and a lot of people tried to kill him over it, including members of his own tribe.)

I suppose if it comes to "what keeps that from happening with us as polytheists?" part of my answer is "we don't stick together enough."  We may be  pile of henotheists, but we don't have any kind of cohesive identity with each other, or any agreement on Who we're elevating above the others.  If you gave us an equivalent to the Babylonian Captivity--forced us to migrate to another place surrounded by foreign ways--I don't think we'd react in that same way of sticking together and forging a more unified, standardized identity.  Not in big enough groups to create the critical mass for a new way of doing things, anyway.  And if you sent us "back," there's not enough of a people to go "back" to to be horrified at and want to reform.
There's just no traction for jeremiads in Paganism, I'm saying.  People try it sometimes.  Everyone just sort of shrugs.
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Fionnbharr

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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2013, 06:02:51 pm »
Quote from: triple_entendre;125873
When did the scales tip so that Yahweh the grouchy brother became The Lord Above All? What would stop that from happening here with us?

 
When only exist within the idea that there is such a thing a linear time. The moment we exist within now, Yahweh is not in control, it belongs to the Titans!
Grief and sorrow grows on the far banks of the river Styx, go there and visit them and you might not find your own way back home. - Achilles

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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2013, 06:13:55 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;125914


 
I can't give you rep, but I wanted to say that this is a wonderful post. And covers Jaffee's 'Early Judaism' rather more concisely!
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Valentine

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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2013, 11:33:07 pm »
Quote from: Juni;125951
I can't give you rep, but I wanted to say that this is a wonderful post. And covers Jaffee's 'Early Judaism' rather more concisely!

 
I'm even worse in person!  Especially with a couple drinks in me or a couple cups of coffee.  I can nerd out for miles.
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Valentine

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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2013, 11:48:05 pm »
Quote from: Fionnbharr;125949
When only exist within the idea that there is such a thing a linear time. The moment we exist within now, Yahweh is not in control, it belongs to the Titans!

 
That'll put marzipan in your pie-plate, bingo!

Also, I have to say I just got the pun in your profile about depth of belief, and I want to say in all sincerity that I think it's very clever.  I wish I'd thought of it first!
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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2013, 01:50:11 am »
Quote from: Fionnbharr;125949
When only exist within the idea that there is such a thing a linear time. The moment we exist within now, Yahweh is not in control, it belongs to the Titans!

 
I don't understand what this means. Can you reword it, possibly?
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Faemon

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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2013, 04:47:46 am »
Quote from: Jack;126004
I don't understand what this means. Can you reword it, possibly?

By "Titans" Fionnbharr meant "Jotnar".  re-Word!  :whis:
« Last Edit: October 19, 2013, 04:48:36 am by Faemon »
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Fionnbharr

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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2013, 05:00:56 am »
Quote from: Jack;126004
I don't understand what this means. Can you reword it, possibly?


If you perceive time as linear you basically perceive time through fixed points stretching backwards (and have the idea that this is happening in a forward moving manner), so asking "when" a certain event took place is futile to those who see time as non existing. In the present, the right now there is only what you bring into that moment you participate in. So basically the understanding is if anything is any certain way then it is because it is happening right now and then you really would not ask "when" would you?

To me Yahweh has no more control than a single ant has over the whole of its colony - he simply is an equal participant under the mercy of the elements that surrounds him. I believe that the Titans has awoken from their hibernation (or how one might describe it) or at least is in the process of waking up. You could ask how long that takes, however I do not believe they perceive anything beyond the movement of energies - that they do not see things in shapes that are separated from each other. So basically they were never in hibernation, so neither is there any waking up to do and no making sense of the word I am writing, maybe. The words assemble themselves: if you are awake then you are awake. It is some odd yet very impressive images I see in my head and to be honest I am not sure of what to think of the way I perceive everything this morning... maybe that is the point to not think about them and just enjoy the mess I call my Self (and that little conversation I had with myself).
Grief and sorrow grows on the far banks of the river Styx, go there and visit them and you might not find your own way back home. - Achilles

Fionnbharr

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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2013, 05:15:49 am »
Quote from: Valentine;125989
Also, I have to say I just got the pun in your profile about depth of belief, and I want to say in all sincerity that I think it's very clever.  I wish I'd thought of it first!


You did think of it first or is it just me forgetting I ever wrote it. This morning there is no making sense of the me I am through the one I went to bed as. I feel like I understand the mess sitting here writing and is at ease with the way I perceive things in a way it did not do yesterday. It is like I am participating in something that is not there.

Quote from: triple_entendre;126019
By "Titans" Fionnbharr meant "Jotnar".  re-Word!  :whis:

 
Oh yes there are also those, I am not sure what to think of them. Honestly I can't really remember writing those words, though I can see it makes sense that I have. So I am not sure what I meant with Titans as I wrote it, now, this morning all I perceive with the words Titans is the Primordial Forces. Okay I am done writing for now as I am not even sure were I put my words, only that they make sentences I can understand.
Grief and sorrow grows on the far banks of the river Styx, go there and visit them and you might not find your own way back home. - Achilles

Valentine

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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2013, 02:28:34 pm »
Quote from: Fionnbharr;126023
You did think of it first or is it just me forgetting I ever wrote it. This morning there is no making sense of the me I am through the one I went to bed as. I feel like I understand the mess sitting here writing and is at ease with the way I perceive things in a way it did not do yesterday. It is like I am participating in something that is not there.


 
Oh yes there are also those, I am not sure what to think of them. Honestly I can't really remember writing those words, though I can see it makes sense that I have. So I am not sure what I meant with Titans as I wrote it, now, this morning all I perceive with the words Titans is the Primordial Forces. Okay I am done writing for now as I am not even sure were I put my words, only that they make sentences I can understand.

 
I promise I don't mean this in an insulting way, but just out of a desire to understand: are you really high?  Often?
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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2013, 05:41:37 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;126067
I promise I don't mean this in an insulting way, but just out of a desire to understand: are you really high?  Often?

 
I am not insulted. Define being high. If it is through substances like marijuana then no. I just simply is changing my perception of reality, where this thing we know as physical reality makes less and less sense in a certain way. Everything kind of becomes more and more fluid. What I find curious is how reality changes with my perception of it.
Grief and sorrow grows on the far banks of the river Styx, go there and visit them and you might not find your own way back home. - Achilles

Valentine

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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2013, 07:59:13 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;125914

(All of this is a different story in Islam; before Muhammad, popular Arabic religion--depending on who you read--was either polytheistic or henotheistic, with the most powerful of the Gods being the one eventually identified with Allah.  Muhammad's task was getting his fellow Arabs to drop the worship of all of the rest of the pantheon in favor of just the one, which he also had to establish as being identical with the God of the Jews and Christians.  Needless to say, it was not easy, and a lot of people tried to kill him over it, including members of his own tribe.)

 
For the sake of completeness, I want to note that classical Arabic paganism, as practiced by the Quraysh--Muhammad's tribe--was not the only religion practiced by pre-Islamic Arabs.  There were Arab Jews and Arab Christians, both of which Muhammad and the early Muslim community were in conversations with, there were probably some Zoroastrians up closer to the Persian border, and there were a group south of Mecca, probably in what's now more-or-less Yemen, called the Sabaeans--who at least according to the Qur'an and Hadith were a fairly-well-established group of monotheists with some power in the region, and who were probably ethnically more-or-less-Arab, or at least some mix of Arabs and folks coming over from Abyssinia.  (The Sabaeans are one of the strong contenders for being "Sheba," as in "Queen of," in the Bible, and were probably also overlapped with what the Romans called "Arabia Felix," the fertile area on the south end of the Arabian peninsula where many people settled, rather than living as nomads, and were made wealthy particularly by trade in frankincense and spices.  It's not clear whether their monotheism was Abrahamic in origin, but the early Muslim community identified their God as identical with the God of Abraham and with Ahura Mazda, and named them, along with Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians, as "People of the Book.")  There's a lot of mention of the Sabaeans, but their tradition didn't survive, so we can't ask them, and there's very little to be found in the way of artifacts, because abandoned places in Arabia tend to get eroded very quickly and also covered in a few tons of sand.
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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2013, 08:34:32 pm »
Quote from: Valentine;125986
I'm even worse in person!  Especially with a couple drinks in me or a couple cups of coffee.  I can nerd out for miles.

 


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Re: Yahweh as one of a pantheon
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2013, 10:18:50 pm »
Quote from: SunflowerP;126108


Sunflower

 
The management cannot be held responsible for the consequences.  Seriously, it is only now that I'm dating an introvert that I am aware of how very much Shakespeare wrote "Peace, I will stop your mouth." for me.
Also, if it paid to nerd out like this at the drop of a hat, well.  That would be another story.  I am a ridiculous wealth of information that most people most days don't actually want.
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