Author Topic: On Deity -or- Where the (Really) Wild Things Are (Read 2190 times)

TheHumanAxiom · « **on:** July 29, 2013, 07:01:40 pm »

I would like to raise a discussion about the nature/experience of deity; I welcome any input of course, though I am also particularly interested in hearing from individuals who write, roleplay, act, and/or otherwise create fictional characters.

I am just beginning my study on pagan based religion, after a long standing interest. I am very drawn towards the concept of multiple, distinct deities, though I haven't settled on whether I take a hard polytheistic stance, or a softer "all are facets of the one" stance yet.

What I am struggling with is how to discern experiences of deity from experiences of imagination, archetypes, the subconscious, etc. The reason I specifically asked for input from individuals who create fiction, is because as someone who very casually roleplayed in my younger days, I have nonetheless had the experience of a "living" fictional character in my head. While I am sure I used some archetypal personality structure for these characters, they had their own experiences in the roleplay, and seemed to exist as distinct individuals in my mind. If I wanted, I could have a mock conversation with them, as well as being aware that their advice or opinions on specific issues may differ from mine, or from other of my characters. Being creations of my mind, their input was almost always available on a whim - of course with more nuance and detail the more I had been thinking about the roleplay and that character.

I am given to understand this is not an unusual experience for individuals who roleplay or write stories. I would think this is also similar to how individuals can internalize close relationships, such that they can almost "talk" with their mother, or best friend, etc., in their own mind. What I struggle with is whether (and if so, how) this can be differentiated from the process of actually getting to know specific, individual, pre-existing deities?

So, my question for all: How do you discern between the voice and experience of deity, versus the voice and experience of any other internalized character (e.g., the internalized voice of your mother, your fictional character, your best friend)? In particular, for individuals who have created very nuanced or detailed character types in their head, how are interactions with those characters different from your interactions with deity? How are they the same?

Thank you all kindly for reading, and for any answers you're willing to provide! I am guessing the answer to this will be different for everyone, so I'd love to hear any points of view - from hard and soft polytheists, as well as individuals who work with more universal deity concepts, archetypes, land spirits, other forms of self, spirit guides, anything!

Best wishes to all.

Nightwind · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2013, 07:15:24 pm »

Quote from: TheHumanAxiom;117298

I would like to raise a discussion about the nature/experience of deity; I welcome any input of course, though I am also particularly interested in hearing from individuals who write, roleplay, act, and/or otherwise create fictional characters.

I am just beginning my study on pagan based religion, after a long standing interest. I am very drawn towards the concept of multiple, distinct deities, though I haven't settled on whether I take a hard polytheistic stance, or a softer "all are facets of the one" stance yet.

What I am struggling with is how to discern experiences of deity from experiences of imagination, archetypes, the subconscious, etc. The reason I specifically asked for input from individuals who create fiction, is because as someone who very casually roleplayed in my younger days, I have nonetheless had the experience of a "living" fictional character in my head. While I am sure I used some archetypal personality structure for these characters, they had their own experiences in the roleplay, and seemed to exist as distinct individuals in my mind. If I wanted, I could have a mock conversation with them, as well as being aware that their advice or opinions on specific issues may differ from mine, or from other of my characters. Being creations of my mind, their input was almost always available on a whim - of course with more nuance and detail the more I had been thinking about the roleplay and that character.

I am given to understand this is not an unusual experience for individuals who roleplay or write stories. I would think this is also similar to how individuals can internalize close relationships, such that they can almost "talk" with their mother, or best friend, etc., in their own mind. What I struggle with is whether (and if so, how) this can be differentiated from the process of actually getting to know specific, individual, pre-existing deities?

So, my question for all: How do you discern between the voice and experience of deity, versus the voice and experience of any other internalized character (e.g., the internalized voice of your mother, your fictional character, your best friend)? In particular, for individuals who have created very nuanced or detailed character types in their head, how are interactions with those characters different from your interactions with deity? How are they the same?

Thank you all kindly for reading, and for any answers you're willing to provide! I am guessing the answer to this will be different for everyone, so I'd love to hear any points of view - from hard and soft polytheists, as well as individuals who work with more universal deity concepts, archetypes, land spirits, other forms of self, spirit guides, anything!

Best wishes to all.

Hm well as a writer, and a roleplayer, and also someone with a mental illness that results in hallucinations all I can really say (and there are people who completely dismiss everything I say out of hand based on that last teensy thing ^_^) is that I just know. It is the same when I know I'm seeing fae activity or any other spiritual phenomena and when the Gods are there. I just can tell the difference.

The only way I can explain it is that when I'm hallucinating my reactions are all in the primitive fear based parts of my brain, and when I have full hallucinations I don't see happy fluffy things. Most of the time I see moving shadows and movement out of the corner of my eyes or something real in the room will take on the aspect of something else. However when I see something that is spiritual but really there I sense pressure between and above my eyes and also react with the higher thought parts of my brain and analyse it. This isn't to say that spiritual things have not frightened me - you should naturally be a little frightened when you have renegged on something a God/dess wants you to do or you have promised to do and they flash into your room giving you the look for a moment.

I guess I'm saying that over time you learn to discern between what is real and what you want to see or what your brain is tricking you into seeing. A spiritual experience is much different than imagination or hallucination (and imagination and hallucination are so closely tied in my brain that it can get confusing and frightening) and you learn through experience which is which. Hope this helps!

Jenett · « **Reply #2 on:** July 29, 2013, 07:34:08 pm »

Quote from: TheHumanAxiom;117298

So, my question for all: How do you discern between the voice and experience of deity, versus the voice and experience of any other internalized character (e.g., the internalized voice of your mother, your fictional character, your best friend)? In particular, for individuals who have created very nuanced or detailed character types in their head, how are interactions with those characters different from your interactions with deity? How are they the same?

Fundamentally? They sound totally different. (Actually, totally different mode of interaction.)

I have had, over the years, several characters who live in my head (and one, at the moment.) Besides finding the process enjoyable, I also find it exceedingly educational: I learn things from them that I would not have picked up on my own, or I learn to look at the world in a new way.

(There is an argument that this kind of creation is something like a fetch: an energetic thoughtform brought into existence by repeated energy and interaction. There are complications with fetches - namely, that if you're not careful, it's possible for them to pull you out of balance with yourself or with others around you, in ways that are problematic for your long-term good. Spending time with the fetch to the exclusion of human relationships - friendships, never mind romance - is not actually a good idea, for example.)

Anyway. I tend to get exceedingly clear *words* from these kinds of experiences. The experience shapes itself in words, it comes out in words, it has words attached to it.

In contrast, my experience with deities is that it's a lot less of the words (the stuff I'm good at, and is normally my primary mode of interacting with the world) and a lot more nebulous stuff. Smells. Sensations. Having knowledge of what I've been told dumped in my head, but in a way that isn't words, just knowing.

They're also things that, over time, either get confirmed by other people who don't know about the deity experiences (and this is not because I work with well-known deities! Several of my deity relationships are with deities that are not at all widely known or honoured). But there's stuff that bleeds through consistently for the deities that doesn't for the internal head stuff.)

In terms of actual *practice*, I tend to hold to the idea that anything that pops up as an idea in my head might be useful, but should be run through logical checks before I act on it, especially for anything that might cause more lasting inconvenience or cost than, say, wandering down to the nearest location to get a soda or a cup of coffee.

That means that I might tuck it away and thinking about it for a few days. I might apply divination. I may very well talk to a trusted friend or three. I may talk to one of my respected religious elders. I might bring it up in chat here, or a post here, or something like that. I might journal about it and poke at the implications. And probably a dozen other things I haven't named. And I usually do at least two of them, because any one form can be more easily skewed than two or three.

And in practice the deity stuff also has a very different timescale to it, in terms of how things happen, how quickly things happen, and so on.

Materialist · « **Reply #3 on:** July 29, 2013, 07:51:31 pm »

Quote from: TheHumanAxiom;117298

What I am struggling with is how to discern experiences of deity from experiences of imagination, archetypes, the subconscious, etc.

Writing is one of my hobbies, so inventing mythical beings for my fictional worlds is very common. Though I have never roleplayed, I did read the "Pantheons of Faerun" (I think that is what it's called) and other rule books for the Forgotten Realms game to help me create better fictional worlds. In my experience, the difference between gods as archetypes and gods as real gods is that some people believe archetypes to be real gods. It's a matter of literalness. Some accept that humans created the gods, others don't. It doesn't really matter because the end result is the same.

Jack · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2013, 07:55:16 pm »

Quote from: TheHumanAxiom;117298

So, my question for all: How do you discern between the voice and experience of deity, versus the voice and experience of any other internalized character (e.g., the internalized voice of your mother, your fictional character, your best friend)? In particular, for individuals who have created very nuanced or detailed character types in their head, how are interactions with those characters different from your interactions with deity? How are they the same?

What they have in common is about what my internal monologue and a conversation with deity have in common - very little. It's the difference between a quiet conversation with your friends in someone's living room and the metaphorical experience of someone talking to you through a bullhorn - it's loud and disconcerting and tends to be hard to understand and about gives you a heart attack when you're not expecting it.

Sobekemiti · « **Reply #5 on:** July 29, 2013, 11:58:43 pm »

Quote from: TheHumanAxiom;117298

So, my question for all: How do you discern between the voice and experience of deity, versus the voice and experience of any other internalized character (e.g., the internalized voice of your mother, your fictional character, your best friend)? In particular, for individuals who have created very nuanced or detailed character types in their head, how are interactions with those characters different from your interactions with deity? How are they the same?

It's just different. My characters talk to me. My Gods are more likely to give me nonverbal signs, like sensations or 'feelings'. Gods tend to offer quite specific things to me; my characters will talk about almost anything. So content is also important. That, and just persistence and experience have taught me to differentiate between them.

veggiewolf · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2013, 01:41:30 pm »

Quote from: Jenett;117306

Fundamentally? They sound totally different...

This.

I've spent a lot of time inside my brain (and it is SCARY in here!) and have learned to tell my own internal chatter from that which comes from outside my self. My internal monologue (or dialogue, if I'm talking to a character) sounds* completely different from the deity interactions that occur within my head.

*I'm using the word 'sounds' here, but my deity interactions often include my other senses as well.

Altair · « **Reply #7 on:** July 30, 2013, 02:02:29 pm »

Quote from: Jenett;117306

Fundamentally? They sound totally different.

And as counterpoint to Jenett and Veggiewolf, both of whom I greatly respect...

...NOT this. Not for me, anyway.

This may be a function of my conception of deity. To me, the gods are within us, around us, and ARE us. There is no separation. So is that feeling, that internal voice, a product of my own imagination or the result of an external entity making contact with me?

It doesn't matter. Am I getting an insight from it? That's what matters. Which I guess puts me closer to the point of view Materialist articulated.

[For the record, you asked esp. for the opinion of writers and the like, of which I'm one; and in fact, one of the things I write most passionately are the original myths of a pantheon all my own. So is that fiction? Inspired revelation? Doesn't matter. Not to me.]

Jenett · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2013, 02:46:27 pm »

Quote from: Altair;117418

This may be a function of my conception of deity. To me, the gods are within us, around us, and ARE us. There is no separation. So is that feeling, that internal voice, a product of my own imagination or the result of an external entity making contact with me?

It doesn't matter. Am I getting an insight from it? That's what matters. Which I guess puts me closer to the point of view Materialist articulated.

Oh, definitely: worth clarifying that I'm definitely over on the hard polytheist side of the spectrum.

(I think there's divinity in all things, including me, but I also think there's a difference between me and a God or Goddess in terms of experiences had, time scale, and a bunch of other things. Plus, y'know. They are Not Me, just like my cat is Not Me and my best friend is Not Me, and the ocean is Not Me, even though those things all have divinity in them too.)

I also want to be clear I find inspiration and spiritual depth in both forms - it's just that they're quite different in how I perceive the data input (as I said, one has words and sometimes sensation, and the other is mostly everything *but* words).

But my basic process of "Is this useful" is pretty much identical for both, and at this point, I think 'amount of impact on my spiritual life' is about equal for both, though I've gone through periods in my life where one or the other was vastly more prevalent.

I do think there's places to be cautious: it's possible, f'example, for someone to come along saying "This deity told me X!" that is counter to other people's experiences with that deity, and that then flavours a bunch of future interactions with those people in ways that may not be of long-term benefit. (We've seen that around here, recently enough, actually.) Which is not as much an issue the "This is a character in my head" experience has, most of the time.

And I think (as already noted) it's a stupid idea to make major life changes on the basis of something in your head, no matter *where* it comes from, without some additional reflection/analysis/thought. But I do think there's potentially more risk to self and larger community if you presume it's a deity doing it, and therefore more care is probably a good move.

veggiewolf · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2013, 04:08:24 pm »

Quote from: Altair;117418

And as counterpoint to Jenett and Veggiewolf, both of whom I greatly respect...

...NOT this. Not for me, anyway.

This may be a function of my conception of deity. To me, the gods are within us, around us, and ARE us. There is no separation. So is that feeling, that internal voice, a product of my own imagination or the result of an external entity making contact with me?

It doesn't matter. Am I getting an insight from it? That's what matters. Which I guess puts me closer to the point of view Materialist articulated.

[For the record, you asked esp. for the opinion of writers and the like, of which I'm one; and in fact, one of the things I write most passionately are the original myths of a pantheon all my own. So is that fiction? Inspired revelation? Doesn't matter. Not to me.]

I completely get this, Altair, and the respect is mutual.

I should probably note that I'm also coming from the hard polytheist POV...and I'd be totally amazed if everyone's experiences were like mine.

I'd also want to go in for a med check if that happened.

TheHumanAxiom · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2013, 12:51:10 am »

Thank you all for your comments! Replies, and more questions, and so on, below!

Quote from: Jenett;117306

I have had, over the years, several characters who live in my head (and one, at the moment.) Besides finding the process enjoyable, I also find it exceedingly educational: I learn things from them that I would not have picked up on my own, or I learn to look at the world in a new way.

This is awesome - I've also experienced character creation as a good deal of fun, but also a great way to get a different perspective on things. I'm sure I'd get a lot more done if I listened to the advice of some of my characters!

Quote from: Jenett;117306

There is an argument that this kind of creation is something like a fetch: an energetic thoughtform brought into existence by repeated energy and interaction.

Quote from: Materialist;117311

In my experience, the difference between gods as archetypes and gods as real gods is that some people believe archetypes to be real gods. It's a matter of literalness. Some accept that humans created the gods, others don't. It doesn't really matter because the end result is the same.

Fetch - that is a new word for me! I've gotten the impression at some point in time (from the foggy, disorganized, multi-year stage of my interest in paganism) that some individuals feel that deities are basically large-scale thoughtforms, created by the repeat energy and interaction of a community of individuals with a shared idea. I see this as a similar (if not the same) argument as saying the deities are human-created archetypes. I'd be curious to hear both of your (and others'!) thoughts? Do you personally feel this way about individual deities? And if the gods are archetypes, do you believe that they also have a energetic reality, or more that they are conceptual and based on human psychology (but still powerful)?

Quote from: Jenett;117306

[T]here's stuff that bleeds through consistently for the deities that doesn't for the internal head stuff.

Is this anything you could elaborate on? Are the experiences being validated something like details about the universe, or about your environment, or people in your environment, or UPGs about your deities being validated by what others describe of the same deity, or... ? I completely understand if you can't elaborate for whatever reason (comfort, oathbound material, space, complexity etc)! Just curious to hear more if you have more detail!

Quote from: Jack;117312

It's the difference between a quiet conversation with your friends in someone's living room and the metaphorical experience of someone talking to you through a bullhorn - it's loud and disconcerting and tends to be hard to understand and about gives you a heart attack when you're not expecting it.

Quote from: veggiewolf;117417

I'm using the word 'sounds' here, but my deity interactions often include my other senses as well.

Quote from: cymrudraco;117336

My Gods are more likely to give me nonverbal signs, like sensations or 'feelings'. Gods tend to offer quite specific things to me; my characters will talk about almost anything. So content is also important.

I'm curious; how do you tell that the feelings and sensations are from deity then? Like, if I sit here and visualize being hugged, or recall a memory of being hugged, or remember a dream in which I got an awesome hug (okay, maybe I need a hug)... Depending on how much I submerge myself in the experience, I have the same warm, glowy, supported, loved sensation that I am experiencing when I do my general daily devotion before meditating and going to bed for the night. So then I wonder - is that deity that I feel, or just my happiness at engaging in this practice? (It sometimes feels so in the moment, until later, or unless I analyze it in the moment...) Do the feelings you get on your own from a grand piece of music, or an emotional movie, etc... are they different in quality or strength than those from deity?

And if you talk to deity, do you not get a response typically unless they have a strong message to convey, or you get more subtle feelings as response (e.g., chastising yourself gently for a foolish act, and then sensing amusement from deity)? I don't know that I've ever experienced something which "like a bullhorn" so to speak... It's interesting though, because I hear descriptions both of subtle emotional/sensory responses from deity as well as the sensation of being thwapped hard over the head! I'm not sure if that is differences in the style of the deities, or in the individuals, or do many people experience both? And if you get a random thwap out of nowhere, how do you figure out what it means? Or is it usually in response to a thought, situation, or something going on?

Quote from: Nightwind;117302

The only way I can explain it is that when I'm hallucinating my reactions are all in the primitive fear based parts of my brain, and when I have full hallucinations I don't see happy fluffy things. [...] However when I see something that is spiritual but really there I sense pressure between and above my eyes and also react with the higher thought parts of my brain and analyse it.

Quote from: Jenett;117306

In terms of actual *practice*, I tend to hold to the idea that anything that pops up as an idea in my head might be useful, but should be run through logical checks before I act on it[...]

Quote from: Altair;117418

This may be a function of my conception of deity. To me, the gods are within us, around us, and ARE us. There is no separation. So is that feeling, that internal voice, a product of my own imagination or the result of an external entity making contact with me?

It doesn't matter. Am I getting an insight from it? That's what matters.

Quote from: Jenett;117423

I also want to be clear I find inspiration and spiritual depth in both forms - it's just that they're quite different in how I perceive the data input (as I said, one has words and sometimes sensation, and the other is mostly everything *but* words).

But my basic process of "Is this useful" is pretty much identical for both, and at this point, I think 'amount of impact on my spiritual life' is about equal for both, though I've gone through periods in my life where one or the other was vastly more prevalent.

Thank you all for these insights. Some part of me knows I need to learn to deal with uncertainty better (and is afraid deity will teach its lesson by not coming around loud and clear until I don't want it to so bad

yikes), and I like the points each of you made here. That if it leads away from insight and a higher-minded development, it probably isn't deity, and vice versa - if it does lead towards these higher faculties, it is more likely that it is; that even messages of insight from deity may require some analysis to be recognized as such; and that ultimately, if it turns out to be an insight, it may not be the most important thing to figure out where it came from. (If I have butchered what you were saying, please correct me!) In any case, it helps to be reminded that meaning and spirituality do not require deity, however much I want that to be a part of my experience!

TheHumanAxiom · « **Reply #11 on:** July 31, 2013, 12:58:46 am »

Quote from: Jenett;117423

And I think (as already noted) it's a stupid idea to make major life changes on the basis of something in your head, no matter *where* it comes from, without some additional reflection/analysis/thought. But I do think there's potentially more risk to self and larger community if you presume it's a deity doing it, and therefore more care is probably a good move.

I think this brings up the heart of what I am questioning - how to tell imagination from deity. After all, there is evidence of people who fail to accurately make this distinction. While I am a fair distance away from approaching individual deities in my own work, this uncertainty makes me nervous even anticipating it.

On one level, I suppose I am concerned that deities do not exist, though I know different people experience this differently, and this is a question no one can answer for me. The other side is that I am afraid individual deities do exist, and that I'll mistakenly become some kind of spiritual stalker... carrying on a vast, emotionally invested, unhealthy, profoundly one-sided relationship with a very uninterested deity, who finds me too spiritually insensitive to perceive the "Go Away" message. (Related, I wonder how the target deity would experience this - annoying, amusing, pathetic, or simply off their radar?) After all, it can happen with people - one person thinks that another person likes them back, and gets worked up for an eventual relationship to blossom (or worse, believes that relationship exists already), only to find out they were misreading all the signals (or worse, disregarding even the most blatant, blunt refusals)...

On the one side, I would love to believe in and experience individual entities whose wisdom and experiences outreach my own... entities whom I could work with and honor, while targeting the better good of myself, them, society, and any other causes they value. This is something I really desire, eventually, though I know there is a lot of me-work that needs to happen beforehand.

On the other side, I feel very disturbed and uneasy about the ability of the human mind to create whatever it wants to experience, and to do so rather convincingly. I'm worried that my ability to experience individual deities will hinge on being able to convince myself of their existence beforehand... which as a person who doubts, and has a hard time making up their mind on any complex issue, this idea feels like a lifelong sentence to a spiritual limbo.

Bringing it back a little to the issue of mistakenly identifying an internal experience as an experience of deity, I was reading a thread here that mentioned an individual who felt that the gods and goddesses select (or refuse) followers based on racial background. Based on what I've heard, some groups hold this perspective. Yet I also feel that most people here feel that that perspective is incorrect. So... where did these individuals go wrong? If they genuinely perceive the gods and goddesses as upholding their standard of racially based spirituality... how can we make sense of that? I wouldn't think that they experience their own interactions with deity as fictional, or that we can always dismiss individuals who have this outlook as universally lacking in sincerity or experience... I get the sense that most would support their right to believe what they will... but that at the same time, despite it being a matter of "our experience" versus "their experience," we're pretty comfortable saying they're wrong. So again, it seems that someone is either having a confused experience... or the deities are not at all consistent, pre-existing beings...?

Baahghgh. I get very tied up about it.

Sophia C · « **Reply #12 on:** July 31, 2013, 03:41:23 am »

Quote from: TheHumanAxiom;117455

I think this brings up the heart of what I am questioning - how to tell imagination from deity. After all, there is evidence of people who fail to accurately make this distinction. While I am a fair distance away from approaching individual deities in my own work, this uncertainty makes me nervous even anticipating it.

This is probably going to be a bit unhelpful - but I believe that the gods *use* our imaginations. As such, for me, it can sometimes be difficult to tell the difference (not least because I have a very active imagination and, being autistic-spectrum, have probably spent more time in my inner world than the 'real' world - and just occasionally do have difficulty telling the difference between the two). When I sit down in meditation, having used 'triggers' (ritual, incense etc) to enter a specific kind of inner world, and when I have stated the intention that I want to talk to this or that god, then I start by assuming that the figure I meet in that imaginative state is that god or spirit, using my imaginative faculties to respond to me. Short of hearing their actual voices, I'm honestly not sure what *other* faculty they would use to talk to me... I then have to confirm things that I've 'seen' or 'heard', which is where divination and careful, critical thought can come in useful, as well as the 'lore' about the gods, and other people's experiences with them (to some extent). Because, yes, for me, it is possible to confuse ideas of my own making with things that gods are telling/showing me, and I have to be careful. To some degree there is a difference - there are things I've heard from the gods that I don't think I could make up in a million years, and the quality of what I hear/see in these settings is often different - but it's still possible to confuse things. I think it's always worth backing up anything a spirit or god tells you with other sources and with critical reasoning, personally.

Sobekemiti · « **Reply #13 on:** July 31, 2013, 04:12:43 am »

Quote from: TheHumanAxiom;117454

I'm curious; how do you tell that the feelings and sensations are from deity then? Like, if I sit here and visualize being hugged, or recall a memory of being hugged, or remember a dream in which I got an awesome hug (okay, maybe I need a hug)... Depending on how much I submerge myself in the experience, I have the same warm, glowy, supported, loved sensation that I am experiencing when I do my general daily devotion before meditating and going to bed for the night. So then I wonder - is that deity that I feel, or just my happiness at engaging in this practice? (It sometimes feels so in the moment, until later, or unless I analyze it in the moment...) Do the feelings you get on your own from a grand piece of music, or an emotional movie, etc... are they different in quality or strength than those from deity?

And if you talk to deity, do you not get a response typically unless they have a strong message to convey, or you get more subtle feelings as response (e.g., chastising yourself gently for a foolish act, and then sensing amusement from deity)? I don't know that I've ever experienced something which "like a bullhorn" so to speak... It's interesting though, because I hear descriptions both of subtle emotional/sensory responses from deity as well as the sensation of being thwapped hard over the head! I'm not sure if that is differences in the style of the deities, or in the individuals, or do many people experience both? And if you get a random thwap out of nowhere, how do you figure out what it means? Or is it usually in response to a thought, situation, or something going on?

Experience, mostly. Hekate certainly thwapped me when we first began working together until I told Her I really needed Her to slow down to give me time to deal with everything She'd told me, which She did, to Her credit. I felt like I was in a daze for three weeks while She infodumped into my brain. Could only think about Her, and what She'd told me. I was still fairly grounded in reality, but She totally occupied my thoughts until I told Her to stop. Then She became much more subtle with me.

She's kind of the exception, though. Most other Gods I work with are much more subtle, like maybe sensations more than words. Heru is like that with me; He's more of the 'subtle breeze' sort of God with me, more than an infodumping Hekate. I mean, sometimes, you just know when it's a God. Which I know isn't very useful in describing what it's like.

I know I can tell the difference by how I feel, too. If I'm not really thinking about the Gods, I don't really tend to get much from Them? Which is not to say I have never been randomly thwapped, but it's much rarer for me. I'm more likely to get something from Them if I'm praying/focussing/thinking/doing devotional things for Them. It's like I don't get anything unless I open the connection by thinking/talking about them. I don't always get a response, but I don't always ask/talk to Them, either. Sometimes, I'm just spending time with Them, and if all I get is the sensation that They're there with me, that's fine. Even when I don't feel Them near, I don't panic about it. Sometimes, Gods have to go off and do God things. But it's not a sign of abandonment for me. I know They're still around.

I mean, my Gods have been known to prod me with music, sure; it comes with the territory, working with Muses associated most strongly with music. But there's a different quality to how I perceive/listen to music sent as a message from the gods than there is to music that I'm just listening to. It sounds amplified, the lyrics are clearer, and it impresses itself upon my brain in a much more thwappy way than just music that moves me. The vocals are just ... more powerful, as if there's a divine quality/voice coming in under there. It's seriously different to how I perceive music normally.

And like I said, the content's different, too, when it's my gods contacting me. My characters don't talk about the same sort of things that my Gods talk to me about. I do kind of get words from both, but conversations are more likely between me and my characters. My Gods tend to give words in a one-way kind of direction. And God-sent words are more like ... they don't feel like they're being 'spoken' to me, more written onto my brain. If that even makes sense. I 'see' the words. So Aset will tell me one day, 'I have touched everything', and that's it. There's no conversation, no more words, just that. Whereas I've had very lengthy conversations with fictional muses about all kinds of things, such as where the story is going to go, what else they'd rather have me work on, giving me other ideas to write, changing the story on me as I write, etc.

Though it does complicate things when I work through God mysteries through my writing. But I've learnt to pick those out, anyway, as they usually involve gods and the process, the feeling of writing those pieces, feels really different to 'ordinary' writing, anyway. So there's one I wrote involving an exploration of dead gods and Wesir that, while superficially a piece of fanfiction, is much more than just that. I know I spent a couple of days contemplating exactly what a dead god really was, what it meant to be a dead god, as I thought about how to finish it. It's that extra layer of religious meaning, of mythic writing and contemplation, that makes it more about the Gods than just an ordinary piece of writing. But writing is my strong point anyway, so I'm not surprised it's the most common way I tend to deal with these Mysteries.

Jenett · « **Reply #14 on:** July 31, 2013, 09:28:27 am »

Quote from: TheHumanAxiom;117454

Fetch - that is a new word for me! I've gotten the impression at some point in time (from the foggy, disorganized, multi-year stage of my interest in paganism) that some individuals feel that deities are basically large-scale thoughtforms, created by the repeat energy and interaction of a community of individuals with a shared idea. I see this as a similar (if not the same) argument as saying the deities are human-created archetypes.

For me: My experience of the Gods is that they are independent beings, who - like humans - develop over time, have a degree of internal consistency (or lack of consistency) that's roughly like humans

Which is to say: I think they're way more complicated and layered than archetypes implies, even though they (like humans!) can be clearly heavily affected by one or more archetypes.

I am sort of agnostic on the topic of whether the Gods came first or people came first, but I lean toward the idea that whichever one was first, it's been a constant interplay for millenia: Gods have Very Long Lives, and that changes a lot of things, but humans have a lot of ability to interact directly in the physical world that Gods don't, plus a kind of scope and degree of challenge that leads to particular kinds of growth, interaction, and development that take much longer for the Gods.

Quote

Is this anything you could elaborate on? Are the experiences being validated something like details about the universe, or about your environment, or people in your environment, or UPGs about your deities being validated by what others describe of the same deity, or... ?

Hmm. Some of all of the above? (A lot of my examples are outside the scope of what I could explain here in a reasonable amount of time and space: many are the 'you need an hour of background for the next three sentences to make much sense' sort of thing.)

But in general terms, when it's deities, other people have some experience of them that is independent of my experience of them, and it's not dependent on knowing me. (Because I've had carry-over from that kind of created character, when it's one I and the other person both know about.)

Sometimes this is easier than others: if you're working with a widely-known deity, for example, lots of other people may have other experiences besides yours. But even with very obscure ones (like my primary deity work is), other people working with those deities have experiences that are not things I've talked about, but are consistent when we *do* talk about them.

And some it's odd little things: I work in a tradition that includes Draw Down work, and every single Draw where it's been clear there's a strong presence of deity, that deity has called me something specific (an epithet, not a name.) Even with Draws from people who don't know me at all or well. That's reliably been an indication to me that there is something outside my own head going on.

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