collapse

* Recent Posts

Re: "Christ Is King" by Sophia C
[Today at 07:21:31 pm]


Re: "Christ Is King" by SirPalomides
[Today at 07:13:48 pm]


Re: "Christ Is King" by Sophia C
[Today at 07:04:14 pm]


Re: "Christ Is King" by Sophia C
[Today at 06:56:16 pm]


Re: "Christ Is King" by Yei
[Today at 06:56:00 pm]

Author Topic: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice  (Read 5254 times)

Nyktelios

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 562
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« on: July 24, 2013, 12:42:14 pm »
This thought occurs to me whenever I take part in a public group ritual, or watch Youtube videos of modern pagan rituals. I find that there are a lot of declamations, gestures, and standing around in circles singing funny songs and chanting, this kind of thing doesn't do anything for me, and these rituals have very little in common with historical paganism. In my opinion, they more resemble a church service than a pagan religious festival, with a shepherd leading the flock and focusing the group mind rather than actually honouring a deity. I'm guessing a lot of modern ritual structure comes from Christian influence in western religion in general, but also ceremonial magick, which influenced Wicca, which in turn influenced modern paganism as a whole. Even Hellenic Recon rituals I've seen videos of tend to have people standing around in circles chanting and narrating the purpose of the ritual with feeling like it's a stage performance. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this, but I would like to point out a few things.

First of all, the festivals of pagan antiquity weren't so much like a church service in which people follow a leader in tedious ritualized actions that go on and on. Festivals were more like celebrations, with processions of the temple idols through public streets, kind of like a parade so that the common people could have a visual experience of the deity. There would also be public sacrifices and feasting, in which the community would take part in order to celebrate and propitiate the deity. It wasn't so much about standing in circles chanting and making declamations, although maybe those arose as a substitute to blood sacrifices in the modern age. I don't think animal sacrifices are necessary, as people could offer incense, grain, and fruit/vegetables, and even burn them in a large flame if they wanted to do a fire ritual. Also, ancient pagan rituals were about  honouring a deity more than working towards a magical goal, so many elements of modern ceremonial magick-influenced neo-pagan ritual were not relevant.

The role of priests also differed among pagan antiquity, and while it varied by culture, generally the priests served the deities by working in temples, they weren't really spiritual leaders for the general public. People maintained their own private shrines to the gods at home, where they gave offerings and made their personal prayers. The priestly intermediaries were not necessary. They did perform the big public sacrifices for the community to witness, but they weren't really necessary to lead "rituals" or religious observances. Not like modern paganism, where you have High Priestess or High Druid so-and-so, ordained to lead and serve their community. Nonsense. Wise teachers are always good to have, but pagan priests aren't like Christian ones who are shepherds for the flock. They serve the deity, not the people.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts on the matter. Take them or leave them.

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3258
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 197
    • View Profile
    • Skyhold
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: they/he
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2013, 02:06:02 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;116605
The role of priests also differed among pagan antiquity, and while it varied by culture, generally the priests served the deities by working in temples, they weren't really spiritual leaders for the general public.


Are you putting this forward as what priests and druids should be doing instead of leading ritual? Do you have any temples that are supported by the community and generate enough money for a priest to live on?

Quote
People maintained their own private shrines to the gods at home, where they gave offerings and made their personal prayers. The priestly intermediaries were not necessary.


I think I can safely say that 95% of the pagans I know would tell you that priestly intermediaries are not "necessary" so much as "it's easier to lead a ritual when one person is in charge of the chanting."

Quote
They did perform the big public sacrifices for the community to witness, but they weren't really necessary to lead "rituals" or religious observances. Not like modern paganism, where you have High Priestess or High Druid so-and-so, ordained to lead and serve their community. Nonsense. Wise teachers are always good to have, but pagan priests aren't like Christian ones who are shepherds for the flock. They serve the deity, not the people.

 
I would love to read some more about this! Do you have some sources you can recommend about how ancient priests served only their gods and not the people?
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3743
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1235
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2013, 02:34:51 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;116605
This thought occurs to me whenever I take part in a public group ritual, or watch Youtube videos of modern pagan rituals. I find that there are a lot of declamations, gestures, and standing around in circles singing funny songs and chanting, this kind of thing doesn't do anything for me, and these rituals have very little in common with historical paganism.

 
First: I've been at a reasonable number of community rituals which don't use that format: they are out there. (Among them: I've been at a re-creation based on the commentary about what a Witch's Sabbath looked like, a re-creation of the ritual of the Golden Calf as a ritual for Ba'al, and a ritual for Brigid that included pouring molten metal to make amulets and using the hammer on a portable anvil as the trance induction.)

However, there's a couple of issues.

First, the community structured ritual takes a lot of buy-in (and ongoing preparation) not only from the people leading the ritual but from everyone else there.

The rituals I describe above were all done within a container of a small festival where everyone with an invitation was vouched for and invited by a previous attendee (which is very problematic in some respects, but meant that some kinds of community assumptions were easier to work with, and that advance prep-work and rituals that took a year of planning were feasible.)

And also that there were some very clear guidelines in place about appropriate behaviour, taking care of your own energy, etc. etc. that are not often true in many ritual settings.

(I still have fantasies about doing a Commedia dell' Arte style ritual retelling of some appropriate seasonal myth, interwoven into a larger event. But that takes, y'know, about a year of prep work with the core cast, significant costuming planning, a suitable event, and a dozen other things.)

Second, there are some *very* real safety issues.

Many people do not believe the number of people who will do stupid things regarding fire, heat exhaustion, other exhaustion, stupid food choices, or a dozen other things when it comes to a group ritual setting. Or worse, things like harassment or inappropriate closeness. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be *at* those rituals, nor do I want to be the one responsible for them.

This means, however, that responsible ritual leaders, designing ritual for unknown groups, tend to go with some tried and true methods, and ways to make it clear what the community norms are and what people can expect. (Which is mostly a good thing, but...) And that does, in general, involve both a certain amount of predetermined structure and call-and-response, and someone to keep things moving, and so on.

(The more trusted people you have who can be Stable Responsible Participant In The Crowd and Handy In Case Of Incident, the easier it is to take risks with ritual format, in other words.)

Thirdly, focus.
Rituals focusing heavily on the worship of a specific deity are great as long as everyone at that ritual is good with worshipping that specific deity. In places with a dense Pagan community and a lot of options for other kinds of group ritual work, that can work out really well.

In places with fewer Pagans, or fewer options for community ritual, however, it can leave an awful lot of people out. And leave you with very small rituals at best, and a lot of people who go "Meh, they don't care about me, I'm going to ignore public rituals" at worst (which is not good for the community at large.)

And the reality is, that's most places. Where, in contrast, rituals focusing on seasonal changes, or on general magical workings that many people can get behind (prosperity, abundance, a specific local issue, etc.) are generally going to be accessible to a wider range of people.

So, what can we do better?
Good ritual writing - even in Wiccan-based structure - should involve as many people as possible. In a group ritual of 50, you can't necessarily have everyone taking part in each step. (Even going around the circle with each person saying a few sentences can take half an hour in a group of 50, never mind a more involved offering.)

But you can do things to build in more participation. Some things that have a pretty good track record:

- Have a very clear idea what you want people to get out of the ritual. Then look at it in terms of who you're leaving out who might be there, and what effect that might have in the larger community context. (One ritual a year that leaves a bunch of people out might be okay. If you do that regularly, you either drastically change your community or you break it. Planning an actual transition is probably better for everyone if you want an actual change.)

I have an exception to the above complex rituals: this past year at Paganicon, Brandy Williams did a devotional ritual to Seshat that did *amazing* things for me personally, and did not require a lot of particular prep (except on her part and the part of her partner, who ran the music-playing device and helped with some of the setup.)

Thing is: there were a limited number of people for whom that ritual was of interest. (We had, I think, 20 people in the room, at an event with about 250 in attendance.)

It was not my usual ritual format, and I would almost certainly not have gone except that a) I'd had several conversations with her earlier in the weekend that made me go "I want to see how she does this" and b) I'd had the tap on the shoulder that made me think I should go. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person that was true for: it was not the kind of event I'd have left the house just to go do, or have gone to with a ritual leader I didn't have some previous experience with.

It also worked because it did not ask for particular participation or commitments or anything else other than polite attendance (if we wanted to make them, we could, but it was not built into the ritual). And it was short enough not to be a big chunk of "this has to count because I'm Missing Other Things."

- Look very closely at what the format of ritual you're using does and does not require or suggest.

I make no apologies for the fact that my basic ritual format is Wiccan in origin: it is my training, it is what I feel I can offer best, and most importantly, it's the ritual mode in which I personally have the most tools handy if something unexpected happens (whether that's someone having a hard time coming back from a meditation, someone having a deity unexpectedly tap them on the shoulder and want in, someone disrupting the flow of the energy and interfering with other people's benefit from the ritual, or what.)

In ten+ years, I've had only a handful of group rituals at which *nothing* unexpected happened (because people are people, and ritual that's suppose to change us changes us, and stuff happens as a result), and a great many where the thing was minor, but still took a bit of time or attention to sort out. So, on the whole, I plan for there to be a Something.

But because of that, I make a point when I run public stuff of looking for as many places as I can that are more inclusive (which usually means, yes, being less specific about deity) and about including ritual actions that most people can get behind as a goal.

- Encourage people to participate in some kinds of decoration of the space that's appropriate (and also doesn't interfere with necessary ritual items like altar tools.) You can set the 'this is all of us' mode early by doing so. (Post ritual food also helps with this, but obviously, that's after.)

- Include at least a couple of ritual steps that everyone participates in. Chant may not do it for you, but singing together is a really really classic and exceedingly ancient method of bringing people together. Dance is too, but dance also poses some accessibility issues in particular, so it needs to be thoughtfully arranged. (Choosing good chants is also important, of course.) A moving meditation can work.

Lengthy repeated text is more problematic: it's harder to find things that most people there are comfortable saying.

- Finding ways for everyone to add their energy to the ritual, but that doesn't bog everything down. (As noted above, 50 people doing a thing that takes a minute each lasts a long time!) Some alternatives include a minor piece of divination, having each person quickly add something to a ritual object or offering (ideally in a way that lets multiple people do so at once)

- Giving people a takeaway. Sometimes this might be a small item charmed in a ritual, sometimes it might be something else. The Seshat ritual had her spilling citrine beads as an offering, with each of us being able to take one home: that in the candlelight is an image that is going to last far longer in my head than the bead itself likely will.

An example:
I believe in 2008, I was doing the opening ritual for our Pagan Pride, and it had to be something I was comfortable running in the midst of running the event (which meant I was not going to try New And Complicated Ritual Modes), and while the opening ritual is traditionally run by the Board, none of the other Board members had a lot of experience in group ritual, and argh.

So what I came up with was something that suited the need (building a community space for ritual) that involved a simple moving meditation focused on stepping into community. (The moving involved taking a step backwards, sideways, turning, etc. before stepping forward into a smaller circle: very simple movements.) And then each person came to one of the four quarter people (whichever they prefered) and took a small object that had a brief sentence on it. (Divination, but not a standard method.)

It is not the best ritual I've ever done, but it worked for a lot of people, and it worked for the setting, and it did not take forever to do, and it did not take forever to plan, and it did not require a highly trained and practised set of assistants. (They all got about 10 minutes walkthrough.) And a lot of times, that's the ritual we have

Here's the thing: afterwards, I had Guy Who Latched On And Wanted To Talk For Hours, two rounds of people who really wanted someone to tell them Pagans were friendly and where could they talk more, three people who were there for a class project, and wanted to know who they could ask questions of, three scheduled events to prep for, and a partridge in a pear tree. Which is also part of ritual aftercare, but not a part everyone thinks about.

The next year? This was our ritual:
- Brief welcome
- Circle joined by "Hand to hand, I join this circle" method.
- Brief elemental chant (air moves me, fire transforms me, etc.)

And then the working which was to go around the circle of about 30 people 3 times.
First: My name is [whatever] and I am a [path here]
Second: I'm [name] and I [whatever someone does for work, hobby, other involvement, generally outside the direct Pagan community].
Third: Here's how I share my gifts in the community.

(I had carefully lined it up so that the first five people had been prepped so they could model the structure and length of what we wanted people to say. If you do not do this, someone will talk for minutes and bog everything down.)

It also worked for its purpose, though it was not an exceedingly moving ritual for just about anyone. But for "We are gathering here in community, yay." - it worked.

Point is: know what your goals are, and who's going to be there, and who you want to encourage to be there. And then learn to plan for your choices and live with them.
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Asch

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 883
  • Total likes: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2013, 05:32:55 pm »
Quote from: Jenett;116618

Point is: know what your goals are, and who's going to be there, and who you want to encourage to be there. And then learn to plan for your choices and live with them.

 
In other words Neo-Pagans don't do truly ancient public rituals because it's not feasible or useful for the most part.

Jussayin'

(I love your post Jenett as usual :D)

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3258
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 197
    • View Profile
    • Skyhold
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: they/he
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2013, 05:46:10 pm »
Quote from: Asch;116651
In other words Neo-Pagans don't do truly ancient public rituals because it's not feasible or useful for the most part.

Jussayin'

(I love your post Jenett as usual :D)

 
Clearly the problem is that we need more state-funded temples to the gods with full-time clergy.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Nyktelios

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 562
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2013, 06:57:52 pm »
Quote from: Jack;116614
Are you putting this forward as what priests and druids should be doing instead of leading ritual? Do you have any temples that are supported by the community and generate enough money for a priest to live on?

No, I'm saying that without living cults and temples, the role of priests is kind of irrelevant in a non-Wiccan ritual format. Wiccan and Wiccan-ish traditions have their own version of what priests and priestesses do, which is fine within that system, but I think a lot of people use "priest/ess" and "druid" titles because they sound cool rather than because they have any relevance in the modern world.

Quote from: Jack;116614
I would love to read some more about this! Do you have some sources you can recommend about how ancient priests served only their gods and not the people?

I don't know if this is serious or snarky, but Jon D. Mikalson's "Ancient Greek Religion", he discusses the function of the cult, and the role of the priest in maintaining the sanctuary and looking after the offerings given to the temple. Priests in ancient Egypt also had very little to do with the general public, as it was their job to care for the idol of the god and perform the temple rituals that didn't include common citizens at all (except on festival days when they would bring the idol through town in a procession, but the regular people still wouldn't be involved in any "rituals"). For information on Egyptian temples and priests, Shafer's "Religion in Ancient Egypt" and Morenz's "Egyptian Religion" are good options.

Quote from: Jenett;116618
First: I've been at a reasonable number of community rituals which don't use that format: they are out there.

Fair. I went to a Samhain ritual led by someone claiming to be a Celtic Recon a few years ago, that involved a lot of gesturing to the four directions and holding hands and dancing in circles. It ended with the ritual leader thanking "the triple goddess and her consort", so I'm pretty sure it wasn't very authentic. I've seen videos of Druid and Hellenic rituals that are very similar to the neo-Wiccan format, which I find really frustrating.

Quote from: Jenett;116618
I make no apologies for the fact that my basic ritual format is Wiccan in origin: it is my training, it is what I feel I can offer best, and most importantly, it's the ritual mode in which I personally have the most tools handy if something unexpected happens (whether that's someone having a hard time coming back from a meditation, someone having a deity unexpectedly tap them on the shoulder and want in, someone disrupting the flow of the energy and interfering with other people's benefit from the ritual, or what.)  

That's completely fair, it can just be annoying when non-denominational rituals or practices that claim to be recon use the neo-Wiccan style as the default format. If ti's actually meant to be a Wiccan ritual, then they can knock themselves out with all the chanting and meditating they want.

Quote from: Jenett;116618
Point is: know what your goals are, and who's going to be there, and who you want to encourage to be there. And then learn to plan for your choices and live with them.

True, those are good things to keep in mind for community rituals.

Quote from: Asch;116651
In other words Neo-Pagans don't do truly ancient public rituals because it's not feasible or useful for the most part.

Jussayin'

Ancient practices tend to be a lot simpler than modern Wiccanish neo-pagan rituals, though. When I first started looking into Hellenic religion, I actually had to get used to how simple worship was when I was accustomed to the neo-Wiccan circle-casting, declamations, magical work, cakes and wine, chanting, hugging, blah blah blah. On an individual level, worship can be as simple as an offering/libation and a prayer. On a group level, it can be as simple as a sacrifice (can be bloodless) and a feast, though processions and parades can be included too.

Maybe I just don't have the patience to sit through long group rituals, which might be the reason I prefer to be solitary. I think of things like meditation as more of a private activity, and the New Age-y kind of stuff like chanting and Tarot reading aren't part of my personal practice, so I get impatient when I'm expected to take part in them as part of a group. I went to a more neo-Wiccan Samhain ritual a different year than the Celtic one I mentioned earlier, which involved group meditation and stuff like that, and I find it hard to quiet and focus my mind in a room full of people, so I was just bored sitting in silence for about 20 minutes. Then again, a friend of mine who was at the same ritual seemed to have really enjoyed it, so it's probably just me who is bothered by these things.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 07:05:36 pm by Nyktelios »

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2013, 07:02:41 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;116666
No, I'm saying that without living cults and temples, the role of priests is kind of irrelevant in a non-Wiccan ritual format.


Oh, speak for your own damn religion, please.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

RandallS

  • Site Admin
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: NE Ohio
  • Posts: 10311
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 296
    • View Profile
  • Religion: Hellenic Pagan
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2013, 07:21:18 pm »
Quote from: Jack;116656
Clearly the problem is that we need more state-funded temples to the gods with full-time clergy.

This is what a lot of Pagans seem to forget when their look at religion in ancient Greece and Rome and compare what they did with what Pagans do today.  Even if you filter out all the Wicca-influence and ceremonial magic influence, we'd never be able to do things like the Greeks/Romans/etc. -- at least not in the US where the Constitution forbids state-supported religion. You really can't HAVE temples for the Gods and priests alone as without some type of "congregation" of laity (that the priests and temples "provide services" for), there would not be money to fund the temple and priests, barring some very wealthy person funding it because he wants one -- but if that happens the temple priesthood can only service the Gods in ways their wealthy patron approves of or the money may disappear.
Randall
RetroRoleplaying [Blog]: Microlite74/75/78/81, BX Advanced, and Other Old School Tabletop RPGs
Microlite20: Lots of Rules Lite Tabletop RPGs -- Many Free

Asch

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 883
  • Total likes: 5
    • View Profile
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2013, 07:36:46 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;116666
That's completely fair, it can just be annoying when non-denominational rituals or practices that claim to be recon use the neo-Wiccan style as the default format. If ti's actually meant to be a Wiccan ritual, then they can knock themselves out with all the chanting and meditating they want.

 
Okay that's fair but that's not what you said, you specifically said 'neo pagan rituals' which is incredibly wide ranging.

Specificity is good.

Also what Darkhawk said.

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3258
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 197
    • View Profile
    • Skyhold
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: they/he
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2013, 08:01:01 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;116666
No, I'm saying that without living cults and temples, the role of priests is kind of irrelevant in a non-Wiccan ritual format. Wiccan and Wiccan-ish traditions have their own version of what priests and priestesses do, which is fine within that system, but I think a lot of people use "priest/ess" and "druid" titles because they sound cool rather than because they have any relevance in the modern world.


So you're not arguing that Wiccans shouldn't have priests, just recons, am I correct?

And nobody I know seems to use "druid" as interchangeable with "priest" - how do you feel it should be used?

Quote
I don't know if this is serious or snarky, but Jon D. Mikalson's "Ancient Greek Religion", he discusses the function of the cult, and the role of the priest in maintaining the sanctuary and looking after the offerings given to the temple. Priests in ancient Egypt also had very little to do with the general public, as it was their job to care for the idol of the god and perform the temple rituals that didn't include common citizens at all (except on festival days when they would bring the idol through town in a procession, but the regular people still wouldn't be involved in any "rituals"). For information on Egyptian temples and priests, Shafer's "Religion in Ancient Egypt" and Morenz's "Egyptian Religion" are good options.


Okay, so, more specifically Egyptian and Hellenic recons?

I mean, I'm mostly Norse-flavored, we don't have a whole lot to go on but we've got our gothi and they're priest-chieftain types and most definitely dealt with the community. So... maybe you're speaking a little broadly?
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Nyktelios

  • Sr. Master Member
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jul 2011
  • Posts: 562
  • Total likes: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2013, 11:32:33 pm »
Quote from: Asch;116678
Okay that's fair but that's not what you said, you specifically said 'neo pagan rituals' which is incredibly wide ranging.


You're right. I guess I meant that I would prefer public neo-pagan rituals that don't fall under the "witchcraft" umbrella not to use neo-Wiccan ritual structure as the default framework. Specificity would help, I always forget one thing or another when I try to explain something.

I have witchy influence in my own practice, so I don't dismiss it entirely, but I do find the popular ritual structure to be rather tedious with a lot of unnecessary aspects to it, so I admire the simplicity of ancient practice.

Quote from: Darkhawk;116668
Oh, speak for your own damn religion, please.


I think Feri and other traditions under the witchcraft umbrella can fall under the "Wiccanish" category for the purposes of this discussion, though that's another (rather touchy) topic.

Also, you might try to express yourself a little less rudely once in a while. Thanks ever so.
 
Quote from: Jack;116684
So you're not arguing that Wiccans shouldn't have priests, just recons, am I correct?


Not necessarily that they *shouldn't* have priests whatsoever, just acknowledge the difference between something like Christian priesthood, which is one of spiritual leadership, shepherding the flock, and serving the community, and priesthood of pagan antiquity, which had more to do with maintaining the cult of a deity.

Quote from: Jack;116684
And nobody I know seems to use "druid" as interchangeable with "priest" - how do you feel it should be used?


I don't know, it's very confusing, and it's probably none of my business. In my understanding, druids with the priest class of Celtic societies, though now druidism is its own religion where every practitioner is a druid. People can use whatever labels they like, I just find it pretentious when people claim titles like "Arch Druid", which have different origins and a different meaning than what they are using it for now, and it just seems like the person is playing at being pope with the 5 people who might take him or her seriously. Maybe I'm just judgmental.


Quote from: Jack;116684
Okay, so, more specifically Egyptian and Hellenic recons?

I mean, I'm mostly Norse-flavored, we don't have a whole lot to go on but we've got our gothi and they're priest-chieftain types and most definitely dealt with the community. So... maybe you're speaking a little broadly?


Well, the Greek and Egyptian cultures are my area of bias, so maybe I am speaking broadly, though I don't think their religious practices were atypical of many polytheistic cultures at the time, especially where they overlap.

I also don't mean to say that priests of pagan antiquity *never* associated with the public, just that their focus was more on cultivating the deity in the temple rather than being spiritual leaders for the people. I don't want to make it sound like it's black-and-white between Christian ministry and pagan priests, I just want to emphasize there were some big differences in antiquity. Worship could be done just as effectively  offering incense and wine to the gods at a home shrine, and isn't like modern religion in the west where worship equates to people gathering to listen to some guy in robes lecture them for an hour and answering him with memorized responses delivered in a monotone voice.

I don't understand there to be a dichotomy between religious leader and congregation in ancient paganism as in the modern Abrahamic traditions, as people could worship for themselves and priests performed a civic duty of caring for the gods in the temple, and one sphere of religion wasn't necessarily related to the other except on festival days, which were more a celebration than a religious service in the modern sense, if that's any more clear. It's hard to be clear and concise on a discussion board with such a complicated topic.

Darkhawk

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 5219
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1123
    • View Profile
    • Suns in her Branches
  • Religion: An American Werewolf in the Akhet; Kemetic; Feri; Imaginary Baltic Heathen; Discordian; UU; CoX; Etc
  • Preferred Pronouns: any of he, they, she
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2013, 11:48:04 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;116702
I think Feri and other traditions under the witchcraft umbrella can fall under the "Wiccanish" category for the purposes of this discussion, though that's another (rather touchy) topic.


Even if that were even remotely what I was talking about, speak for your own damn religion.
as the water grinds the stone
we rise and fall
as our ashes turn to dust
we shine like stars    - Covenant, "Bullet"

Jenett

  • Senior Staff
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Location: Boston, MA
  • Posts: 3743
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 1235
    • View Profile
    • Seeking: First steps on a path
  • Religion: Initiatory religious witchcraft
  • Preferred Pronouns: she/her
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2013, 11:57:30 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;116666

Ancient practices tend to be a lot simpler than modern Wiccanish neo-pagan rituals, though. When I first started looking into Hellenic religion, I actually had to get used to how simple worship was when I was accustomed to the neo-Wiccan circle-casting, declamations, magical work, cakes and wine, chanting, hugging, blah blah blah. On an individual level, worship can be as simple as an offering/libation and a prayer. On a group level, it can be as simple as a sacrifice (can be bloodless) and a feast, though processions and parades can be included too.


Yes and no.

See, here's the thing. Most humans need time to transition into sacred space/ritual mode, and time to transition out of it at the end. So, when you are designing for group ritual, you need to plan for that.

(Also, in practice, it turns out that most people will not leave home and drive somewhere for, say, a 20 minute ritual. If you want people to come to things, you need to either build it into a longer event, or you need to make it more than 20 minutes. An hour of ritual, an hour of pre-ritual prep that's sort of optional, but flexible, and an hour to two hours of post-ritual food and sociability works pretty well. The parallels to 'hour of church, hour of post-church social and/or further religious education' are left as an exercise to the reader.)

In Wiccan mode, in a well-designed ritual, you have a chunk of stuff designed to say "Hey, yo, people! This is a ritual! Here's some ritual stuff we're doing!" that gestures at the ritual focus before you get into the actual specific stuff that's being done. And then you have the doing of whatever the ritual action is. And then you have some time to transition people back out. If you skimp on the in and out parts, the ritual *really* won't work for a lot of people. Which makes it hard to get them to come back next time.

(In my experience, for N = ritual working time, you need about 1/2 N on the beginning and end. So if you have 20 minutes of actual ritual meat, you need 10 to set people up, and 10 to lead people out. You can skimp on the time on either end *if* you're using a ritual format the majority of the people there are comfortable with, but you still need at least 5 minutes.)  

Now, processions can help with that. But processions have accessibility problems, too. And they require Stuff and Space, and often things like permits (or at least managing outdoor curious people), all of which take some planning. (Because a procession around a fenced back yard is, it turns out, not all that impressive, usually.)

In addition, a bunch of practical things:
1) Remarkably few people in this day and age know how to properly project their voice so they can be heard at a distance clearly without *breaking* their voice.

(I am the child of a theatre professor and have significant vocal training, I can shut up an open field of 150 people when I do it right to do an announcement. And I *still* fail at doing larger group ritual unless I'm very careful because my natural speech pace is too fast for most ritual things.)

Which is to say: If you want more than 15 people to hear you outside, or more than about 30-40 to hear you inside, you need everyone facing you, or you need Serious Attention To Audiability. Christian churches use architecture to help. Most indoor rentable spaces for Pagan purposes are big square boxes with lousy acoustics. (And outdoor space, being outdoor, has not much for the sound to bounce back from.)

In any of these case, circles with people facing inward are exceedingly helpful. It also means everyone can see everyone else, which helps with community feeling.

2) Related to my earlier comment about "You put a bunch of people in a situation where actual religious experiences might happen in ways no one expected", you really do need a couple of people who are in charge of certain pieces. That doesn't have to mean 'person doing all the talking/formal ritual gesturing' - but you do need:

* someone whose sole job it is to help anyone with a crisis during ritual (help them out of the ritual space, get them water, call for additional help if needed, etc.)

* if outside, someone whose job it is to make sure Stupid Curious Bystanders don't interrupt in problematic ways and/or talk to the park police or whoever when they wonder what you're up to.

* someone whose job it is to help keep things moving. In my practice, we sometimes refer to the ritual shill: the person who will be the first one to say something in "Come forward and say your [thing about the season/thing to the God we're honouring/whatever". In group rituals with a lot of "Say X about the season" stuff, you actually want 3-4 in a group of 30+, because people require a fair bit of modelling sometimes.)

* You also do generally need a Someone People Focus On person (whatever you call them, or whether there's more than one of them) though there are exceptions (but in those cases, you need to do some advance prep for people on how they work, because people naturally tend to look for a leader and a group of 30 or so will Make There Be One if you don't direct that focus somewhere.)

3) The thing about group rituals is that they are generally going to be *no one's* ideal ritual.

Even in a small tight group where people know each other well, and you're working in a highly structured format that everyone understands, no one's going to get everything they want out of every ritual.

In more general rituals, the most that most public rituals plan on is "People have a decent time, and get enough out of it to come back." Anything else is gravy, a surprise, and not to be counted on. (Occasionally people *do* have major religious experiences, or major devotional experiences. But that's not something you can plan for happening. And it's certainly not going to be everyone there.)

Personally, I don't go to group rituals for Major Personal Experiences. I go because it's good to be with others in community and share the things we can share. I go because it's useful to me to know what else is going on in the community and how people do things. I go because i want to catch up with Pagan friends before and after ritual. I go because I want to see how this group or this person leading ritual does it. Occasionally, I go because the ritual description itself makes me curious, but that's actually pretty rare (I usually need to also trust the person doing the ritual can do something interesting with it, so it's usually more "This person gives good ritual: worth my time")

Which is to say, I will put up with a certain amount of chanting the chants I'm not crazy about, and dealing with people doing things in different ways, and ritual stuff that isn't my taste, because Having Personal Awesome Ritual Experience is not what I'm there for.

(And sometimes I go because there is *nothing like 150 people doing a spiral dance and singing in harmony that goes on and on and on, and nothing like that ritual for Ba'al and the smoke and the fire and the dancing and the glitter and the glory, and nothing like the sound of hammer on anvil, and melted metal pouring into a sand mold.* Some stuff I can't do by myself.)
 
4) Related to "Other people in group ritual are NOT ME", part of why ritual stuff has lots of smells and sounds and colours and textures and food really helps here is that different senses speak to different people.

In a fairly homogeneous culture (ritually speaking) you can do even more with this: anyone who is familiar with the color iconography (and actually knows a little about it) can instantly tell a church in Lent from a church after Easter. Or one in Advent to one after Christmas.)

You can do fascinating things with different incense choices for different rituals or needs or deities, if you can set up and reinforce specific scents over time. (I use perfume as a trigger for Drawing Down: a little on my wrist just before I prepare for the Draw. Same idea.) Though again, access and allergy issues.

Anyway. In a larger and more heterogenous group of ritual goers (by which I mean, varying levels of experience and familiarity, and one can assume generally not raised in the faith they're practicing as Pagans), you need to have stuff different people can connect to.

Altars don't do a ton for me, except as a working tool. But colour and statues and iconography and symbols do a lot for other people. So when I'm planning group ritual, I plan that in.

Chant may not do a lot for you, but it does a lot for other people (and in particular, it gets peoples minds and breaths pointed in the same direction, and that is Very Handy often.)

Movement doesn't work for everyone, but again, it syncs intention and focus and breath.

And so on and so forth. No ritual's going to include everything. But most successful rituals will have at least 3-4 and maybe 5-6 different modes people can hook into, so that most people have a doorway into the ritual's mindset and focus they can work with.

There are certainly other ritual modes than the Wiccan-based ones. But any successful mode in the modern age a) cannot rely on historical homogeneity of cultural assumptions or symbolism or large-group community based practice and b) needs to take human nature and ritual psychology into account.

Or it's going to fail.
Seek Knowledge, Find Wisdom: Research help on esoteric and eclectic topics (consulting and other services)

Seeking: first steps on a Pagan path (advice for seekers and people new to Paganism)

Jack

  • Adept Member
  • ********
  • Join Date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Cascadia
  • Posts: 3258
  • Country: us
  • Total likes: 197
    • View Profile
    • Skyhold
  • Religion: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Preferred Pronouns: they/he
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2013, 12:55:10 am »
Quote from: Carnelian;116702
Not necessarily that they *shouldn't* have priests whatsoever, just acknowledge the difference between something like Christian priesthood, which is one of spiritual leadership, shepherding the flock, and serving the community, and priesthood of pagan antiquity, which had more to do with maintaining the cult of a deity.


Priesthood of the specific antiquities you're talking about, and not, say, the Norse.

Quote
I don't know, it's very confusing, and it's probably none of my business. In my understanding, druids with the priest class of Celtic societies, though now druidism is its own religion where every practitioner is a druid. People can use whatever labels they like, I just find it pretentious when people claim titles like "Arch Druid", which have different origins and a different meaning than what they are using it for now, and it just seems like the person is playing at being pope with the 5 people who might take him or her seriously. Maybe I'm just judgmental.


Okay, so, I'm not sure what you're referring to specifically here but my experience with Archdruids has been through the ADF, specifically through Rev. Kirk Thomas, and he has built a freaking temple where he serves the gods and holds high day services and if that's not enough work for the gods to qualify in your mind, I don't think there's a living pagan who can fulfill your standards.

And the ADF has a lot more than 5 people in it.

Quote
Well, the Greek and Egyptian cultures are my area of bias, so maybe I am speaking broadly, though I don't think their religious practices were atypical of many polytheistic cultures at the time, especially where they overlap.


I'm not sure you realize this, but what you just said is "Maybe I'm generalizing, but I think that's because almost all cultures fit my generalization."

So far you've cited two. I'll give you Rome as a freebie third. Give me another.

Quote
I don't want to make it sound like it's black-and-white between Christian ministry and pagan priests, I just want to emphasize there were some big differences in antiquity. Worship could be done just as effectively  offering incense and wine to the gods at a home shrine, and isn't like modern religion in the west where worship equates to people gathering to listen to some guy in robes lecture them for an hour and answering him with memorized responses delivered in a monotone voice.


If the rituals you're going to have monotone responses, find a better ritual. Sheesh.

Quote
I don't understand there to be a dichotomy between religious leader and congregation in ancient paganism as in the modern Abrahamic traditions, as people could worship for themselves and priests performed a civic duty of caring for the gods in the temple, and one sphere of religion wasn't necessarily related to the other except on festival days, which were more a celebration than a religious service in the modern sense, if that's any more clear. It's hard to be clear and concise on a discussion board with such a complicated topic.

 
I can worship for myself. In fact, I do worship for myself. No public ritual I've ever been to has positioned itself as being in lieu of a personal relationship with the gods. I worship at home, and I do festivals for the community as well as for the gods.

Which is pretty much, to the best of my understanding, how it was done Back In The Day in the areas my gods tend to come from.
Hail Mara, Lady of Good Things!
"The only way to cope with something deadly serious is to try to treat it a little lightly." -Madeleine L'Engle

Ivy

  • Sr. Newbie
  • **
  • Join Date: Jul 2013
  • Posts: 15
  • Total likes: 0
    • View Profile
Re: Re-Thinking Neo-Pagan Practice
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2013, 01:09:05 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;116702
I don't know, it's very confusing, and it's probably none of my business. In my understanding, druids with the priest class of Celtic societies, though now druidism is its own religion where every practitioner is a druid. People can use whatever labels they like, I just find it pretentious when people claim titles like "Arch Druid", which have different origins and a different meaning than what they are using it for now, and it just seems like the person is playing at being pope with the 5 people who might take him or her seriously. Maybe I'm just judgmental.

 
As one who does follow a "druid" path, I'm going to jump in for a moment. None of the groups I've worked with call our "leader" (for lack of a better word) "Arch Druid" so & so. Nor do they "play at being pope with the 5 people who might take him or her seriously." :mad: Although, the "Druids" were the priestly class during their time. There are other labels we use within Druidry. We don't all "pretentiously" call ourselves Druid! I personally do not like labels, however, as I am studying to be a Chaplain I will most likely use that label myself once I have completed my training. Not because I think it makes me some sort of "grand poo bah" but because it helps others in the community understand one's role better.  Not that I believe it matters, I think a person has the right to label themselves whatever they want (even if they do it just because they think it sounds cool.)

Yes, you are being judgmental. It seems you feel as if your brand of Paganism & the way you do things is fine, others not so much. Religions grow, evolve, & change over time. If they did not they would become static. Just because some group does things that "wasn't done the way they did it back then" doesn't mean it isn't legitimate & meaningful for those involved in that religion now. You accuse others of rudeness yet the way you express your opinions of other groups comes off as rude as well. Further, I must wonder, if this bothers you so much, why do you bother to go to public rituals at all if you know this is common?:confused:
Finding paganism is like finding your way home after a long, arduous journey. (me)
"I\'m not superstitious I\'m a witch. Witches aren\'t superstitious. We are what people are superstitious of." :(Terry Pratchett

Tags:
 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
62 Replies
14793 Views
Last post December 28, 2015, 08:41:29 pm
by Jenett
60 Replies
10431 Views
Last post August 24, 2013, 11:29:58 pm
by Fireof9
5 Replies
1872 Views
Last post August 07, 2015, 11:35:41 am
by RecycledBenedict
3 Replies
1712 Views
Last post January 02, 2016, 01:24:18 pm
by Emma Eldritch
3 Replies
4026 Views
Last post June 02, 2023, 09:23:27 am
by SirPalomides

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 186
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 4
  • Dot Users Online:

* Please Donate!

The Cauldron's server is expensive and requires monthly payments. Please become a Bronze, Silver or Gold Donor if you can. Donations are needed every month. Without member support, we can't afford the server.

* Shop & Support TC

The links below are affiliate links. When you click on one of these links you will go to the listed shopping site with The Cauldron's affiliate code. Any purchases you make during your visit will earn TC a tiny percentage of your purchase price at no extra cost to you.

* In Memoriam

Chavi (2006)
Elspeth (2010)
Marilyn (2013)

* Cauldron Staff

Host:
Sunflower

Message Board Staff
Board Coordinator:
Darkhawk

Assistant Board Coordinator:
Aster Breo

Senior Staff:
Aisling, Allaya, Jenett, Sefiru

Staff:
Ashmire, EclecticWheel, HarpingHawke, Kylara, PerditaPickle, rocquelaire

Discord Chat Staff
Chat Coordinator:
Morag

'Up All Night' Coordinator:
Altair

Cauldron Council:
Bob, Catja, Chatelaine, Emma-Eldritch, Fausta, Jubes, Kelly, LyricFox, Phouka, Sperran, Star, Steve, Tana

Site Administrator:
Randall

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal