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Author Topic: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything  (Read 9832 times)

Marukai

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A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« on: July 15, 2013, 08:11:32 pm »
I had a heated discussion with a friend about Religion and Non Believers. The discussion went from the current Abrahamic Religions to the Egyptians, Sumerians and Witchcraft. He believes there is no such thing as Witches and that it is all a psychological matter. He also doesn't believe in life after death. I'm not sure where some people get the philosophy that there is no life after death because I have heard this same philosophy from other people.


He then goes onward by stating that the Human race would be light years ahead if there weren't any religions. I personally believe that some aspects of his beliefs are true because of the fact that things like stem cell research and cannabis are both persecuted as acts of crime, yet both offer vast amounts of healing.

I was told that I have a Medieval frame of mind because I believe in evil spirits and other dimensions. I also got into a heated exchange about Witchcraft having so many facets and that earliest forms of medicine stemmed from Witchcraft. Alchemy is another facet that evolved into chemistry. Modern physics has already demonstrated that there are other realms.


So am I really thinking with a Medieval Mind?

Materialist

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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2013, 09:06:44 pm »
Quote from: Marukai;115740

So am I really thinking with a Medieval Mind?


Your keen interest, that I've noticed in you, with spirits, demons, possession, and your tending towards literalism in the matter, is suggestive of an outdated mindset. Personally to me it's all superstitious nonsense. As you know from other discussions you've started here, some will agree with me on some points.

How medieval you are depends on how many of the scientific discoveries that have been made you reject. Like the origin of disease-is it evil spirits persecuting you or bacterial infections? Or, does the universe orbit the Earth, or does it orbit the Sun which orbits the galaxy?

I'm surprised by your seeming incredulity at hearing that not everyone believes in an afterlife. This is the case for millions of people, and has always been a belief for humanity. It sounds like you're more offended that not everyone believes everything you believe in. So what? The evidence that death provides is that there is no afterlife. Don't be offended when you meet someone who is content with that.

So I, for one, concur with that guy you were talking to, in that you do have some medieval ideas.

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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2013, 11:01:51 pm »
Quote from: Marukai;115740
I'm not sure where some people get the philosophy that there is no life after death because I have heard this same philosophy from other people.

 
Because some people don't believe in life after death?  It's not exactly a philosophy that has to come "from" somewhere.

Eleni

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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2013, 01:05:03 am »
Quote from: Marukai;115740
I had a heated discussion with a friend about Religion and Non Believers. The discussion went from the current Abrahamic Religions to the Egyptians, Sumerians and Witchcraft. He believes there is no such thing as Witches and that it is all a psychological matter. He also doesn't believe in life after death. I'm not sure where some people get the philosophy that there is no life after death because I have heard this same philosophy from other people.


He then goes onward by stating that the Human race would be light years ahead if there weren't any religions. I personally believe that some aspects of his beliefs are true because of the fact that things like stem cell research and cannabis are both persecuted as acts of crime, yet both offer vast amounts of healing.

I was told that I have a Medieval frame of mind because I believe in evil spirits and other dimensions. I also got into a heated exchange about Witchcraft having so many facets and that earliest forms of medicine stemmed from Witchcraft. Alchemy is another facet that evolved into chemistry. Modern physics has already demonstrated that there are other realms.


So am I really thinking with a Medieval Mind?

 
I am agnostic on the existence of an afterlife. I think it'd be great if there was one, but for all I know things will be as they were before I was born, that is to say, by way of not existing I will neither know or care. Atheism is the result of following the scientific path of information laid out through tests and results filtered via the scientific method. The data we have supports atheism. I feel you're conflating the fact that your friend doesn't believe in an afterlife with him not wanting there to be an afterlife. Many atheists must make peace, in fact, with their ultimate conclusion that only oblivion exists beyond death. Beyond that I feel it's fundamentally flawed to see religion and spirituality as part of the same cloth as science. Belief and faith is belief and faith regardless of the presence or lack of science.

Even things like stem cell research and cannabis as things "persecuted" are more the result of socialization as a whole, though religion plays a big role or little role depending on the culture. Stem cell research issues are largely an issue of patriarchy, in which religion has a massive and largely negative role, though is not without its merits. Cannabis is largely racial and social class, thus religion is less involved.

As far as medieval frames of mind, all science and medicine has to come from somewhere and various forms of paganism are essentially the roots of many religions. Quick review though of witchcraft and medicine will point to your friend being the best kind of correct, technically correct! Mental Illness and Psychiatric maladies are some of the least understood and researched health issues in no small part because for thousands of years we've viewed it as a spiritual affliction as opposed to the physical one it is. Almost all of our information on the functions and malfunctions of the brain are thanks to information gathered in the last century, when we stopped being willing to attribute the  symptoms to spiritual causes.

Look at things like bleeding as well, that spread bacteria and sickness due to lack of knowledge about germs. Like the spiritual treatment of biological affliction like cancer, or the plague, rather than the medical treatment.

If you study history and anthropology, the trajectory leading up indicated we should have been on the moon shortly after Leonardo Da Vinci lived, not centuries later. The regressions we've experienced not due to "natural" population bottlenecks are almost solely products of religious origin, or social-wildly-fueled-by-religion origin.

Your friend has well founded criticism towards religion and beyond that logic for being areligious. Do I feel that all religion needs to die? No, but I feel it's a huge warning to practice your path mindfully and honestly and attempt to not fall into similar mistakes. If you're unwilling to at least entertain his ideas  and the validity of them, I'd argue thats a very medieval approach.

My response is long and rambling but before I wrap up, I want to add that while string theory (and various multiverse theories) has a wealth of data and sound math, even if there was substantial proof of many universes and multiple demensions, it proves exactly nothing about what lies therein. I hazard a guess if you spoke with this friend about string theory and dimensions without introducing anything spiritual you'd have an amazing conversation, same with keeping any "being" talk as speculative!

Dark Midnight

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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2013, 01:14:16 am »
Quote from: Marukai;115740
He believes there is no such thing as Witches and that it is all a psychological matter. He also doesn't believe in life after death.

 
People can choose to believe in whatever they wish. That is what faith IS. No one said that we all have to believe in the same things. I don't follow the path of a lot of people here, nor do they follow mine, but that doesn't make one of us right and the other wrong.

I am married to an Agnostic. He doesn't believe in what I do, nor does he believe in any type or form of existence after death, That is his choice. He doesn't look down on me or think I'm crazy for my beliefs, and I don't at him. We respect each others beliefs. Tolerance and understanding- that's the key.
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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2013, 02:16:02 am »
Quote from: Marukai;115740
So am I really thinking with a Medieval Mind?


I'd suggest that your mindset, based on your posts here, tends toward the fanciful.  And that's coming from someone who has her own share of fanciful woo.

I only put on my truly judgey pants for special occasions.

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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2013, 02:35:53 am »
Quote from: Marukai;115740
He also doesn't believe in life after death. I'm not sure where some people get the philosophy that there is no life after death because I have heard this same philosophy from other people.

 
Because no one's come back from the dead to verifiably demonstrate the existence of an afterlife...?
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Marukai

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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2013, 02:36:24 am »
Quote from: Dark Midnight;115766
People can choose to believe in whatever they wish. That is what faith IS. No one said that we all have to believe in the same things. I don't follow the path of a lot of people here, nor do they follow mine, but that doesn't make one of us right and the other wrong.

I am married to an Agnostic. He doesn't believe in what I do, nor does he believe in any type or form of existence after death, That is his choice. He doesn't look down on me or think I'm crazy for my beliefs, and I don't at him. We respect each others beliefs. Tolerance and understanding- that's the key.


I don't understand why some people dismiss ghosts and haunted places as "false" are they in denial? There are so many documentaries about haunted places and ghosts but some people still deny ghosts as being fictitious. They may not be ghosts but be Jinn, Demons, or other supernatural beings.

Eleni

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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2013, 02:53:24 am »
Quote from: Marukai;115771
I don't understand why some people dismiss ghosts and haunted places as "false" are they in denial? There are so many documentaries about haunted places and ghosts but some people still deny ghosts as being fictitious. They may not be ghosts but be Jinn, Demons, or other supernatural beings.

 
Really?

Is it seriously that hard to grasp, "hey not everyone is like me"? Because tha is your basic complaint.

As far as dismissal of supernatural and occult things, do you honestly not comprehend that some people conceive of and live spiritual lives that are complex and unique compared to what you live?
 
Ghosts, spirits, demons, other worlds do not exist in the quantifiable scientific sense and never have. Stop being a jerk about it.

Marukai

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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2013, 03:00:43 am »
Quote from: Eleni;115772
Really?

Is it seriously that hard to grasp, "hey not everyone is like me"? Because tha is your basic complaint.

As far as dismissal of supernatural and occult things, do you honestly not comprehend that some people conceive of and live spiritual lives that are complex and unique compared to what you live?
 
Ghosts, spirits, demons, other worlds do not exist in the quantifiable scientific sense and never have. Stop being a jerk about it.

 
You're the one being a jerk about it by over reacting. It seems as though a person that entirely dismisses Witches and the existence of the supernatural would seem to be a very narrow minded person. I like to remain open minded to the unexplained.

Dark Midnight

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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2013, 03:23:01 am »
Quote from: Marukai;115774
You're the one being a jerk about it by over reacting. It seems as though a person that entirely dismisses Witches and the existence of the supernatural would seem to be a very narrow minded person. I like to remain open minded to the unexplained.

 
Some people prefer to have proof before they believe in some things. That is not necessarily being closed/ narrow minded. Your decision to remain open to the unexplained is just that- your decision. Let others make up their own minds in their own time. What harm is it doing to anyone else, really?
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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 07:40:18 am »
Quote from: Eleni;115772
Stop being a jerk about it.

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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 07:43:43 am »
Quote from: Marukai;115774
You're the one being a jerk about it by over reacting.

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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2013, 08:00:00 am »
Quote from: Naomi J;115770
Because no one's come back from the dead to verifiably demonstrate the existence of an afterlife...?

 
Well, plenty of people have come back after having been dead. And some of them even report strange scenes and sounds that they experienced while dead. But most people still don't believe them, because, as you said, there's no way to verify their experiences.

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Re: A Medieval Mind Set V.S Not Believing in anything
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2013, 08:20:09 am »
Quote from: FierFlye;115798
Well, plenty of people have come back after having been dead. And some of them even report strange scenes and sounds that they experienced while dead. But most people still don't believe them, because, as you said, there's no way to verify their experiences.

 
The non-verifiability is one issue. But I'd also argue that these people haven't come back from the dead - they've recovered from a serious injury that stopped their heart or temporarily ceased their autonomic functions and/or other key neurological or organ functions - the key word being temporarily. It therefore depends on how you define 'dead'. 'Clinical death' can be as simple as someone's heart having stopped - but that is now considered a medical emergency, rather than being the end of the attempt to resuscitate the person. I believe that, while that used to be the definition of death, it is now understood that a number of events take place in the actively-dying stage, and these are cumulatively taken as death. The very fact that we have a difference between 'clinical death' and 'legal death' demonstrates this. The definition of 'death' has long been a subject of academic debate. I would argue that no one comes back from death, because death is final. (But I do understand that the term is used in different ways by different people.)
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