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Author Topic: Athena- A Goddess for Men?  (Read 4525 times)

Scent of Pine

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Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« on: June 10, 2013, 01:44:29 am »
I've recently begin researching the goddess Athena, and came across this article:  

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/grecoromanmyth1/a/aa062599.htm

There are several short pages that discuss the mythology of Athena punishing women- Arachne and Iodama, and of the death of Medusa and Pallas.  Although the author never really states his central thesis within the text, the headline is to my mind inflammatory.  

Granted, it's from About.com, (I found it through a link on another site) but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this subject.

Leanan Sidhe

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2013, 03:15:41 am »
Quote from: Scent of Pine;111297
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this subject.

 
I never really thought about Athena as being "for" men or women.

I think it was kind of a leap to use instances of her taking issue with specific individuals as evidence that she was against her own gender. Hera took issue with plenty of women, but she wasn't accused of being un-womanly because of it.
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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2013, 08:16:00 am »
Quote from: Leanan Sidhe;111304
I never really thought about Athena as being "for" men or women.

This. Athena choose me long ago -- and I don't think my gender had anything to do with it.

Quote
I think it was kind of a leap to use instances of her taking issue with specific individuals as evidence that she was against her own gender. Hera took issue with plenty of women, but she wasn't accused of being un-womanly because of it.

Agreed. It's fairly clear from the myths that these people had offended Athena in some way -- and, it does seem to have been related to their gender.
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Nyktelios

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2013, 08:45:22 am »
Quote from: Scent of Pine;111297
I've recently begin researching the goddess Athena, and came across this article:  

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/grecoromanmyth1/a/aa062599.htm

There are several short pages that discuss the mythology of Athena punishing women- Arachne and Iodama, and of the death of Medusa and Pallas.  Although the author never really states his central thesis within the text, the headline is to my mind inflammatory.  

Granted, it's from About.com, (I found it through a link on another site) but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this subject.

 
As I've mentioned in another thread, in Aeschylus' Oresteia trilogy of plays, Athena declares that she always sides with the men (in this case, she favoured Orestes even though he killed his mother, Clytemnestra). I discussed this in a class in university a few years ago, and my professor suggested Athene was this way because she was born from Zeus without a mother, had a masculine sphere of influence, such as war and strategy, and did not function as sexually feminine. There may have been other reasons, but I don't remember.

That said, she does rule over the feminine arts of spinning and weaving. While she can be a rather manly goddess, I don't think she is solely the deity of one sex or the other. She rules aspects of the lives of both men and women.

Scent of Pine

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2013, 04:58:17 am »
Quote from: Carnelian;111316
As I've mentioned in another thread, in Aeschylus' Oresteia trilogy of plays, Athena declares that she always sides with the men (in this case, she favoured Orestes even though he killed his mother, Clytemnestra). I discussed this in a class in university a few years ago, and my professor suggested Athene was this way because she was born from Zeus without a mother, had a masculine sphere of influence, such as war and strategy, and did not function as sexually feminine. There may have been other reasons, but I don't remember.

That said, she does rule over the feminine arts of spinning and weaving. While she can be a rather manly goddess, I don't think she is solely the deity of one sex or the other. She rules aspects of the lives of both men and women.

I found this today:

 http://www.ucd.ie/pages/99/articles/corcoran.pdf  

Its' an essay discussing Athena's role as goddess of war and how the contradiction of a female soldier in Greek society makes some sense.  I also mentions your point about her birth influencing her behavior.

I agree that she seemed to punish those who deserved it.

The point about how men are often more willing to take advice from women than other men is interesting.  I suppose men wouldn't feel as threatened by advice from a woman who had no interest in "showing him up".  I'm not sure if I agree with that 100%, as many men might just think women had no knowledge of war.

I suppose my only interaction with Athena for quite some time has been references in the 101 books- "Athena = X"  type of thing.  The reality is quite a bit more complicated, made more so by the distance of time and culture.  I'm still grappling with how to relate to her as a woman today and do justice to her original personality.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 09:58:41 am by SunflowerP »

Caroline

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2013, 08:42:58 am »
Quote from: Carnelian;111316
I discussed this in a class in university a few years ago, and my professor suggested Athene was this way because she was born from Zeus without a mother, had a masculine sphere of influence, such as war and strategy, and did not function as sexually feminine.

 
I've heard this argument before and it ignores the fact that Athene does indeed have a mother - the Titan Metis, Zeus' first wife, whom he swallowed when she was pregnant (a preemptive strike to avoid that prophecy that Metis' second child, a son, would be greater than Zeus himself.)

Quote from: Carnelian;111316
She rules aspects of the lives of both men and women.


Yes - Athene is as much a civilization goddess as a war goddess.

Nyktelios

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2013, 11:05:18 am »
Quote from: Caroline;111613
I've heard this argument before and it ignores the fact that Athene does indeed have a mother - the Titan Metis, Zeus' first wife, whom he swallowed when she was pregnant (a preemptive strike to avoid that prophecy that Metis' second child, a son, would be greater than Zeus himself.)


Right, but since Metis was swallowed while pregnant, Athene technically came out of Zeus when she was born, and never experienced a mother.

Queen of Wands

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2013, 11:14:35 am »
Quote from: Carnelian;111316
As I've mentioned in another thread, in Aeschylus' Oresteia trilogy of plays, Athena declares that she always sides with the men (in this case, she favoured Orestes even though he killed his mother, Clytemnestra). I discussed this in a class in university a few years ago, and my professor suggested Athene was this way because she was born from Zeus without a mother, had a masculine sphere of influence, such as war and strategy, and did not function as sexually feminine. There may have been other reasons, but I don't remember.

 

I've always viewed Athena as the kind of woman who claims she's not a feminist because she's not into bra burning - perhaps that's why we don't get along in the slightest. To me, Athena is a woman-hater: to gain so much power and influence in a patriarchal society, she goes along with it willingly.

Caroline

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2013, 11:41:58 am »
Quote from: Carnelian;111631
Right, but since Metis was swallowed while pregnant, Athene technically came out of Zeus when she was born, and never experienced a mother.

I dunno about that either: Hesiod clearly intimates that Zeus is still in communication with Metis ('Zeus put her away inside his own belly so that this goddess should think for him, for good and for evil') and was proactive enough to make Athene's armour ('there Athene had given to her hands what made her supreme over all other immortals who have their homes on Olympos; for Metis made that armor of Athene, terror of armies, in which Athene was born'.

A 'traditional' mothering, perhaps not, but while Athene was often described as 'motherless', clearly some still saw Metis as an active principle; some might even say that she is far more a manifestation of her mother's qualities than her fathers, even seen through a heavily patriarchal lens.

Interesting that no one denies Dionysos a mother; for all he was born out of Zeus' thigh, Semele is still declared his mother (and she being mortal actually died, rather than being subsumed.)

Personally I think the whole 'born of Zeus without a mother' trope is more about Zeus attempting (and usually succeeding) to overwhelm, subsume and control women, be they goddesses or mortal, with whom he is intimately connected.

And interesting that both deities literally 'born of Zeus' have markedly non typical sexualities.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 11:43:36 am by Caroline »

Caroline

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 11:56:05 am »
Quote from: RoselynLibera;111633
To me, Athena is a woman-hater: to gain so much power and influence in a patriarchal society, she goes along with it willingly.

 
See, I don't get that at all - Athene's relationship with Pallas in myths, the close association with woman's arts and skills, her priestesses... none of this speaks to me of a woman-hater.

Plus, there were many other goddesses with great power and influence in the same society; are they to be labelled patriarchal sympathizers as well?

Nyktelios

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 12:13:24 pm »
Quote from: RoselynLibera;111633
I've always viewed Athena as the kind of woman who claims she's not a feminist because she's not into bra burning - perhaps that's why we don't get along in the slightest. To me, Athena is a woman-hater: to gain so much power and influence in a patriarchal society, she goes along with it willingly.

 
Not to discount your experiences with her, but in my opinion, it humanizes the gods too much to think that they are on the level of human political movements. The gods can't necessarily be taken at face value, as they reflect centuries of the changing cultural experience of their worshipers. By the Classical period, she was very masculine and militaristic, rejecting traditional femininity, but like many Greek deities, she had titles that suggest her earlier roles were different.

I think she is a being of rich symbolism, perhaps local goddess made patroness and protector of Athens. Greek goddesses were traditionally associated with fertility and motherhood, and Athene bears titles like Meter ("Mother") in Athens, so maybe that's how she originated, but as Athens became an increasingly militaristic city, as the patroness of the city she became militaristic herself, and became a virgin goddess to represent the impenetrability of the city. These roles were validated with myth, as Athene's motherly role became that of foster-mother to Erichtoninous, who was born from the earth Goddess Gaia after Hephaistos tried to have sex with Athene and she resisted, wiping his semen off her with wool and letting it fall on the earth. Erichthonius then became the mythical first king of Athens, and so Athene was the (foster) mother of Athenian citizens. Her importance is legitimated in myth by making her the daughter of Zeus, with the wisdom of Metis but without her feminine influence, however, her relevance was very local to Athens, and outside of the city, Athene wasn't necessarily very important. In some cities (like Olympia, I think), she wasn't even considered an Olympian.

I think it is more accurate to think of her as a protective deity of her city, with attributes that reflect militaristic power and the patriarchal justice of Zeus, not as a divine woman-hater. I can't remember which one, but there was a festival in Athens in which young girls would carry sacred objects from the temple of Athene of the City to that of Aphrodite in the Gardens, indicating some kind of fertility significance, and association with the primary deity of femininity and womanhood. I've heard it suggested that it represented the transition of the young girls from the maidenhood represented by Athene to Aphrodite's sphere of womanhood and marriage. In this way, Athene is involved with the female life cycle in a way similar to Artemis.

Quote from: Caroline;111640
Interesting that no one denies Dionysos a mother; for all he was born out of Zeus' thigh, Semele is still declared his mother (and she being mortal actually died, rather than being subsumed.)


True, but I think it has to do with the symbolism associated with said deities. Athene represents a cerebral, masculine goddess, so the motherhood and femininity is underplayed, while Dionysos is a half-mortal god of dying and reviving nature, so his mortal origins are more emphasized. Also, Semele was killed while Dionysos was in the womb, and then brought to Olympos by her son from the underworld under a different name, she wasn't absorbed into Zeus like Metis, so the circumstances are different. I'm not sure how to accurately explain it, but those are reasons I can think of for the different statuses of the mothers of Athene and Dionysos.

Whew, sorry for the long post!

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 01:47:22 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;111652
Not to discount your experiences with her, but in my opinion, it humanizes the gods too much to think that they are on the level of human political movements. The gods can't necessarily be taken at face value, as they reflect centuries of the changing cultural experience of their worshipers. By the Classical period, she was very masculine and militaristic, rejecting traditional femininity, but like many Greek deities, she had titles that suggest her earlier roles were different.


Not at all! I was trying to make a (rather generalized) comparison. Perhaps it's my own distaste but I rest my opinion on the case of Orestes. I can't think of a case where Athena sided with a woman but if someone can, please point it out to me! I always enjoy reading new myths.

Caroline

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 04:55:45 pm »
Quote from: Carnelian;111652
I can't remember which one, but there was a festival in Athens in which young girls would carry sacred objects from the temple of Athene of the City to that of Aphrodite in the Gardens, indicating some kind of fertility significance, and association with the primary deity of femininity and womanhood.

Arrephoria - the carrying of sacred 'unspoken' things. It's also been posited that it was part of the ritualized agriculture cycle as well.  What I find interesting is that they then carried something(s) back up as well.

Quote from: Carnelian;111652
True, but I think it has to do with the symbolism associated with said deities. Athene represents a cerebral, masculine goddess, so the motherhood and femininity is underplayed, while Dionysos is a half-mortal god of dying and reviving nature, so his mortal origins are more emphasized. Also, Semele was killed while Dionysos was in the womb, and then brought to Olympos by her son from the underworld under a different name, she wasn't absorbed into Zeus like Metis, so the circumstances are different. I'm not sure how to accurately explain it, but those are reasons I can think of for the different statuses of the mothers of Athene and Dionysos.

I think describing Athene as a cerebral, masculine goddess is narrowing - I think we do a disservice when we undervalue the necessity of the arts and crafts Athene governed; as I said, both a war *and* a civilization goddess. I don't think that this portrayal was as one-sided in the ancient world; much of our modern 'Athene as wise martial goddess' is routed in later Renaissance and modern expression.

Strictly speaking, both Athene and Dionysos were 'in the womb' at one point - Metis was already pregnant when Zeus decided to eat fly-Metis. But I agree that the later myth of bringing Semele to Olympus did cement her place in the mythic landscape even as Metis was diminished.

Quote from: Carnelian;111652
Whew, sorry for the long post!

Hey, no apology necessary :) I can talk about Athene all day long (comes with being Sworn).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2013, 04:56:56 pm by Caroline »

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 04:57:16 pm »
Quote from: RoselynLibera;111713
Not at all! I was trying to make a (rather generalized) comparison. Perhaps it's my own distaste but I rest my opinion on the case of Orestes. I can't think of a case where Athena sided with a woman but if someone can, please point it out to me! I always enjoy reading new myths.

 
Off the top of my head, didn't Athena wreak unholy vengeance on the soldiers who raped Cassandra in Her temple at Troy?
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What you have created, no one can tear asunder.

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Caroline

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Re: Athena- A Goddess for Men?
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 05:08:13 pm »
Quote from: RoselynLibera;111713
Not at all! I was trying to make a (rather generalized) comparison. Perhaps it's my own distaste but I rest my opinion on the case of Orestes. I can't think of a case where Athena sided with a woman but if someone can, please point it out to me! I always enjoy reading new myths.

 
Sadly I fear that goddess & woman interactions are thin on the ground - comes of centuries of privileging men's stories. Beyond a few transformative salvation/companion tales (women saved after or from abuse and dire circumstance and transformed into birds), there are numerous, scattered mentions of Athene helping and teaching women: aiding in the escape of the Danaiads (and inventing a ship to do it), Eurynome (taught wit and 'all her arts'), the friendship and mourning of Pallas, teaching the Koronides to weave and the Pandareides 'the works that benefit women'. (Very telling that all these women who had interactions with Athene are known solely as the daughters of this or that man, and the details of those interactions barely spoken of at all.)

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