Author Topic: Urd - Leikin - Hel (Read 3643 times)

Haugatysja · « **on:** March 29, 2013, 12:27:48 pm »

Hi.

I just started to read Our Fathers Godsaga by Viktor Rydberg, and I came across something interesting. According to Rydberg the name Hel was used for the realm of the dead in Norse mythology. The goddess who ruled that realm was originally the norn Urd, and the name of Loki's daughter was supposedly Leikin. With the rise of Christianity, Hel became hell and Leikin was turned into the goddess Hel.

I have read that Hel isn't an old goddess before, but the other stuff is completely new to me. Does anyone now where i should look for more information about this?

hlewagastir · « **Reply #1 on:** March 30, 2013, 07:44:44 pm »

Quote from: Haugatysja;103618

Hi.

I just started to read Our Fathers Godsaga by Viktor Rydberg, and I came across something interesting. According to Rydberg the name Hel was used for the realm of the dead in Norse mythology. The goddess who ruled that realm was originally the norn Urd, and the name of Loki's daughter was supposedly Leikin. With the rise of Christianity, Hel became hell and Leikin was turned into the goddess Hel.

I have read that Hel isn't an old goddess before, but the other stuff is completely new to me. Does anyone now where i should look for more information about this?

What is Rydbergs argument for Hel originally being Urd? And what does he use to support the idea of Leikin turned into Hel?

Also, if you want actual, viable scholarship I advice you to shelve your copies of Rydberg.

Edit: If he does not provide actual references then I can´t help you... Simek does not mention any of the connections in his dictionary and I have never heard of them before

Haugatysja · « **Reply #2 on:** April 01, 2013, 01:48:34 am »

Quote from: hlewagastir;103786

What is Rydbergs argument for Hel originally being Urd? And what does he use to support the idea of Leikin turned into Hel?

Also, if you want actual, viable scholarship I advice you to shelve your copies of Rydberg.

Edit: If he does not provide actual references then I can´t help you... Simek does not mention any of the connections in his dictionary and I have never heard of them before

I found more information, references and thoughts behind his reasoning in Teutonic Mythology. The chapter is called:

The Psycho-messengers of those not Fallen by the Sword.
Loke's Daughter (Pseudo-Hel in Gylfaginning) Identical with Leikin, page 476, paragraph 67.

http://www.vaidilute.com/books/norroena/rydberg-07.html#daughter

hlewagastir · « **Reply #3 on:** April 01, 2013, 09:34:47 am »

Quote from: Haugatysja;103975

I found more information, references and thoughts behind his reasoning in Teutonic Mythology. The chapter is called:

The Psycho-messengers of those not Fallen by the Sword.
Loke's Daughter (Pseudo-Hel in Gylfaginning) Identical with Leikin, page 476, paragraph 67.

http://www.vaidilute.com/books/norroena/rydberg-07.html#daughter

Cheers,

First of all, for some reason Rydberg does not try to translate leikinn. In the context of Ynglinga saga chap. 22 (which is really the only thing carrying his assertion that Hel has something to do with Leikin) it either means that Lokis maiden is playing with him, has played with him or has tempted/coaxed him...
This also fits with the name Leikn, which according to Simek either means "the bewitched" or "the playmate".

Now, I have a few points of disagreement with Rydbergs treatment of Leikn/Leikin:

1) That the interpretation horsewoman of torture/death is favoured over "horsewoman of the night" ("female riding in the evening" would be more precise IMO).
2) That the horses of Vandradaskalds Leikin is somehow the same as the Danish Hel-horse... There´s a fair stretch in time, according to Den Store Danske - Gyldensdals åbne encyklopædi the first mentioning of the Hel-horse is from the 17th century, geography and actual likeness.
3) The function concerning death/the dead that Rydberg proposes for Leikin seems different from that of Hel.

Point 1 and 2 also concerns his conclusion about Heid in Völuspá... It´s funny how the 10 different Danish/Norgweegen/Swedish translations I just checked, all translate seið hon hug leikinn with words that semantically seem connected with play/joy or being bewitched. Like she is bewitched with seidr or is in ecstasy, or that she use seidr eagerly or with delight.

Still haven´t seen anything to support his claim that Urd is the origin of Hel. But then again, I only read chap. 67.

As I said before: I advice you to shelve Rydberg. There are much better, up to date, free scholarly works out there... If scholarly works are not your thing you can read free translations of the source literature online - if your are from Sweden there should be loads of translations available.

Haugatysja · « **Reply #4 on:** April 02, 2013, 07:17:51 am »

Quote from: hlewagastir;104000

Cheers,

First of all, for some reason Rydberg does not try to translate leikinn. In the context of Ynglinga saga chap. 22 (which is really the only thing carrying his assertion that Hel has something to do with Leikin) it either means that Lokis maiden is playing with him, has played with him or has tempted/coaxed him...
This also fits with the name Leikn, which according to Simek either means "the bewitched" or "the playmate".

Now, I have a few points of disagreement with Rydbergs treatment of Leikn/Leikin:

1) That the interpretation horsewoman of torture/death is favoured over "horsewoman of the night" ("female riding in the evening" would be more precise IMO).
2) That the horses of Vandradaskalds Leikin is somehow the same as the Danish Hel-horse... There´s a fair stretch in time, according to Den Store Danske - Gyldensdals åbne encyklopædi the first mentioning of the Hel-horse is from the 17th century, geography and actual likeness.
3) The function concerning death/the dead that Rydberg proposes for Leikin seems different from that of Hel.

Point 1 and 2 also concerns his conclusion about Heid in Völuspá... It´s funny how the 10 different Danish/Norgweegen/Swedish translations I just checked, all translate seið hon hug leikinn with words that semantically seem connected with play/joy or being bewitched. Like she is bewitched with seidr or is in ecstasy, or that she use seidr eagerly or with delight.

Still haven´t seen anything to support his claim that Urd is the origin of Hel. But then again, I only read chap. 67.

As I said before: I advice you to shelve Rydberg. There are much better, up to date, free scholarly works out there... If scholarly works are not your thing you can read free translations of the source literature online - if your are from Sweden there should be loads of translations available.

Thank you for your answer. I'm interested i Norse mythology, but I haven't read any scholarly work at all on the subject, except for a class I took at the university, and that was very general. Which means that I don't have much to compare Rydbergs assumptions with. I was thinking of buying Simeks book. What other books do you recommend?
When you refer to source literature, do you mean the Eddas and the Sagas, or other texts?

hlewagastir · « **Reply #5 on:** April 02, 2013, 05:14:28 pm »

Quote from: Haugatysja;104096

Thank you for your answer. I'm interested i Norse mythology, but I haven't read any scholarly work at all on the subject, except for a class I took at the university, and that was very general. Which means that I don't have much to compare Rydbergs assumptions with. I was thinking of buying Simeks book. What other books do you recommend?
When you refer to source literature, do you mean the Eddas and the Sagas, or other texts?

Literature you have to buy:

English:
-Margaret Clunies Ross: A History of Old Norse Poetry and Poetics (Heavy)
-Rory McTurk: Old Norse-Icelandic Literature and Culture (less heavy but still heavy, it covers everything from society to culture and literature... good book)

Swedish/Norwegian/Danish:
-Folke Ström: Nordisk Hedendom - Tro och Sed i Förkristen Tid (Medium, if you know Swedish I highly recommend this)
-Gro Steinsland: Norrøn Religion (Medium... haven´t read much of it to be honest, but Steinsland is one of the major players)
-Preben Meulengracht Sørensen: Kapitler af Nordens litteratur i oldtid og middelalder (Medium/Heavy, awesome book... If you can read and understand a fair amount of Danish this is one to buy!)

Stuff you get for free:

Good journal, free to download, got bookreviews too: http://odroerirjournal.com/

For more awesome links check out the Asatru SIG recommendations: http://www.ecauldron.com/forum/showthread.php?37-Recommended-Rescources-for-Asatru-and-Heathenry

By source literature I pretty much think about the whole lot of Old Norse literature (sagas, eddas, lawcodes, poetry so on and so forth).
You can find Swedish translation for A LOT of it on http://heimskringla.no/wiki/Tekster_p%C3%A5_svensk

Edit: Btw, the two English books I listed contain much information outside of the mythology (still vital if you wanna understand the context of the literature that tells us about the mythology), so the 3 scandinavian titles might be more up the mythological/religion alley

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Author Topic: Urd - Leikin - Hel (Read 3643 times)

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