The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

I have to wonder if that his a blanket accusation.

When it comes to many Native traditions, it usually isn't. Sometimes it is, but I don't get in the habit of doing such a thing. I take things on a case-by-case basis.

On the one hand there could indeed be someone exploiting the culture, on the other they may be people seriously interested and dedicated to following the tradition or practices.

Well, one of the easiest ways to avoid that is to A) make sure what you are adapting to your practice does not require someone to give you permission or have it gifted to you, and B) have permission to use it.

If you're trying to wear a very obvious imitation of a okimâwastotin (Cree word for the "war bonnet"/ "Indian headdress" you often see appropriated for sports logos, etc.) and you have not been gifted such a thing by a tribe? I have every right to call you (general 'you') out for cultural appropriation. It's rude, it's offensive, it's gross, and it doesn't matter what your "intent" is.

I have the same opinion about sweatlodges (spiritual, not mundane) and the Sun Dance. If you haven't been given permission to do it, don't. (EDIT: To clarify, I am not talking about being invited to these events, but rather trying to start up your own and you have not been given the proper permission to do so.)

That's pretty much the only bit I'll comment on from my experience and background.

Do you think that heratige is a determining factor in your practices and actions even down to your religious beliefs?

It was a jumping off point but continues to make itself more relevant all the time. I'm also discovering a lot about my ethnic heritage from a secular perspective, which is very exciting and valuable to me personally.

As in do you think that because you have a lineage tied to a certain practice or belief/system that you should be a part of it?

No, not really. It's inspired me, but preservation of one's culture is important regardless.

Conversely does a lack of a blood tie exclude you from that heritage or system?

Well, you can't claim heritage of something if... you didn't inherit it. Folk practices are different, though, and those can be generally taken out of context for better or for worse. Sometimes lack of exposure to a cultural praxis does very much exclude you from ethically participating, but some people are assholes and do things they're asked not to do anyways.

So for instance could I being a black male with no notable ties to celts or such practice a celtic Religious system and be accepted by virtue of my sincerity alone and a belief and adherance to the practices of that system or would such a thing be frowned on?

There's a lot to unpack here, and it's not quite so black and white as you might posit. Racism, colonialism, white privilege and the like all play very ugly roles in these kinds of real-world situations.

I hear about cultures and people being exploited by outsiders using their ways and traditions and I have to wonder if that his a blanket accusation. On the one hand there could indeed be someone exploiting the culture, on the other they may be people seriously interested and dedicated to following the tradition or practices.

See: cultural appropriation. Generally, this is only a seriously damaging issue where indigenous people are concerned, but this can and does happen to varying degrees with all sorts of religio-cultural practices and beliefs. The practices of non-POC (peoples like the Sami consider themselves to be indigenous people of color, so they don't apply here) European cultures are generally, in my opinion, at the least risk of suffering real damages from this.

Whats the census on the whole thing? thoughts feelings experiances? As always I want to know please and thanks

There really is no consensus in the popular sense. There are a lot of shitty people out there that want to exclude for the sake of exclusivity, and there are those that exclude for the sake of survival. Don't get the two mixed up.

Do you think that heratige is a determining factor in your practices and actions even down to your religious beliefs?
As in do you think that because you have a lineage tied to a certain practice or belief/system that you should be a part of it?

These types of questions seem to come up periodically here at the Cauldron. As another black male, born and raised in the U.S., I thought I'd give you my perspective.

I don't think heritage is a determining factor, but I think it's an option that calls strongly to some people and is certainly worth exploring. I think such a religion will fit better the more connection one has maintained over the generations to the culture the religion springs from.

In my case--and I think for many of us African Americans--that cultural connection is almost nonexistent. Slavery just did too ruthlessly efficient a job of obliterating our ancestral roots. Practicing a West African religion would feel completely foreign to me; same thing for the religions of the diaspora (voudoun, candomble, etc.).

Conversely does a lack of a blood tie exclude you from that heritage or system?

 
From the heritage? By definition, yes. From the system? That's a tough one. For me personally, I feel that it does; I'd feel like a poser. Others don't have that hangup, in which case, more power to them. But, as Cedar noted, be prepared for some strange looks, and heed the warning others in this thread have offered about cultural sensitivity and appropriation. (I thought Maps put it particularly well.)

I'm a modern American guy raised in modern American culture. Like Cedar, I lay claim to that culture, the culture of the West, and have every right to do so. If anything, personally I'd be drawn to the Greco-Roman pantheons, since they're deeply embedded in Western culture. But that doesn't work for me either, mostly because of the "modern" part of the sentence above; for me, religions can feel culturally inappropriate not just for reasons of heritage, but for reasons of anachronism.

There are no easy answers, but you're asking the right questions.

Do you think that heratige is a determining factor in your practices and actions even down to your religious beliefs?

For me, personally, it was a determining factor.  I'm quite a mutt in terms of my own cultural background, but the only ones I feel drawn to are my maternal grandfather's British & Irish roots, and my maternal grandmother's German background.  So when I was searching for a path and a pantheon to follow, those were the places I looked rather than, say, Egyptian or Greek.  But spirituality is a very, very personal thing - your mileage will, of course, vary enormously.

do you think that because you have a lineage tied to a certain practice or belief/system that you should be a part of it?

No.  I choose to do so, but don't feel any obligation, and with the exception of the few deities I've had personal contact with I think the pantheon in general could take me or leave me and isn't all that interested in my presence or absence.

However, I think it's relevant to this point that my heritage is almost entirely in colonialist, conquering cultures, where belonging to them brings its own cultural privilege.  My experience will be very, very different from someone with, say, a Native American or Aboriginal Australian background.

Conversely does a lack of a blood tie exclude you from that heritage or system?

Mine, no.  Some others are, and I respect that.

I wish I'd said that.

 
Same here.  Big +1.

The 'exclude for the sake of survival' thing was something I wanted to touch on, but wasn't sure how to word it.  But yeah, there are two very different things there.  On one hand you might have people wanting to restrict who can be in a recon movement to keep it 'pure', or to keep out those who 'don't take it seriously' - ie, do it exactly the same way those people do.  That's very different from from Aboriginal Australians who've faced a fierce campaign to wipe out their culture and language being leery about sharing it with the people who tried to destroy it.

I think that if someone, legitimately, wants to be a part of a culturally-specific spiritual practice, and be dedicated to it, that they may or may not have blood/genetic ties to, should be welcomed. And again, many people don't realize there may be something similar in their own blood-- like the shamans in all cultures across the world, or "sweatlodges" also being cross-cultural, not just Native American (the Scandinavians had them, most commonly known as Sauna in Finland, and other parts of the world).

Sorry if I sound like I'm repeating myself. I kind of see it for instance, if a person from Arabia wanted to become a Druid (they are probably, or have family who are, Muslim, and have no cultural or religious ties to Ireland/Druids/Celts etc. but they are drawn to that faith/path) and want to be dedicated to that, then that should be allowed them regardless of genealogy or cultural ties. Also, I'm pretty sure (could be wrong, but pretty positive) that the majority of say (just as an example) people who practice Hellenistic Reconstructionism (don't know if that's the right spelling, forgive me) aren't Greek, or of Greek heritage/genetics, but that is the faith/path they are called to and practice, that they are dedicated to. Of course, it is easier in that instance because it is not a current cultural practice still alive and well today (or more likely, struggling to survive). Touchy stuff.

I also believe that regardless, one should ALWAYS be respectful. And I don't agree with cultural bashing/misuse/disrespect/exploitation at all.

Do you think that heratige is a determining factor in your practices and actions even down to your religious beliefs?

In mine, no. For others, it can be, varying from heritage playing a role but only a role to having no other option at all.

As in do you think that because you have a lineage tied to a certain practice or belief/system that you should be a part of it?

In short: no.

From personal perspective, if I was to practice what my lineage has practiced, I would have to be Evangelic Lutheran Christian or of a sect of said religion, which I'm not. Looking back the same lineage - and I'm one of those "boringly purebred" types, nothing but plain Northern Finns around and inbetween two river valleys centuries back and not likely to have anything else even before the beginning of official records - there'd be Finnish traditions and gods to follow.

However, what I've got from that direction has been a clear: "You're not ours, go away!". With clear, I mean stuff like getting almost-but-not-quite hit by lightning after trying to address the thunder god of Finnish pantheon. So, off I went. :p

Conversely does a lack of a blood tie exclude you from that heritage or system?

No.

To elaborate, I see a difference between cultures and religions that are alive and practiced, and those we only more or less historical information on, but with traditions and practice broken. Even with the former, there's a wide variety in acceptance of outsiders.

If a religion is alive and practiced and one is drawn towards it, I see as the proper way to go forward being contacting the people in question and presenting one's calling to them. Depending on the culture, it may take a heck of a lot of time and work to be accepted as a true practitioner, or one can get downright rejected. That's the right of those in the religion, I'd say.

Unproper way of doing this would be taking information published, forming a practice based on the information and calling oneself "practitioner of religion X" or claiming a title used in the religion without having gained it as it should be gained in it. Saying one is practicing something based on religion X's beliefs and practices would be better.

With religions and traditions where practice has been broken everybody is pretty much in the same position (with differences in availability of information depending on for example language skills) and the gods seem to nudge who the will regardless of heritage. Not that it wasn't so unheard of that people were drawn to gods not of their own cultural pantheon in the ancient times either - just look at the "imported gods" of Greece and Rome.

So for instance could I being a black male with no notable ties to celts or such practice a celtic Religious system and be accepted by virtue of my sincerity alone and a belief and adherance to the practices of that system or would such a thing be frowned on?

Whatever the path, there's always somebody to frown on somebody else's being on the same path...

I hear about cultures and people being exploited by outsiders using their ways and traditions and I have to wonder if that his a blanket accusation. On the one hand there could indeed be someone exploiting the culture, on the other they may be people seriously interested and dedicated to following the tradition or practices.

The thing is, it can be quite difficult indeed to see which kind of an interested outsider it is asking to be taken in. So, with indigenous people, especially those who have seen their own ways or ways of others like them exploited by outsiders, it isn't really any wonder if there's a hefty dose of suspicion in the air.

With exploitation I mean for example people coming over interested in taking part in rituals - especially ones where some, let's say interesting plants are being used - and then claiming to  be experts enough to teach other outsiders the ritual "as it is practiced by this-or-that tribe/culture". All the while this outsider doesn't know anything past the most superficial layer of the religion and even rituals in question.

This has happened, as has a given culture's religious practices becoming "the latest thing", causing way too large groups of people for the culture to handle traveling over in order to get their taste of this latest fashionable thing to do. When these things happen, there are also pretty much always those eager to capitalize on the interest of "religious practice tourists", providing them with show practices of no deeper value and in worst cases no true authentizity either. If it looks exotic and contains interesting plants used, how would the ignorant outsiders know if what they've been taking part of is authentic or not? Next round of dilution and disfiguration happens if/when those participating in tourist-diluted practices take what they've learned back to where they came from and start teaching it as authentic.

To me so long as they aren't claiming to be a practitioner of said culture it's all good. For instance an eclectic wiccan taking a portion of a druidic ceremony and tweaking or altering it to suit a ritual they are performing is all gravy so long as they admit it and don't claim it is something it isn't.

:nod: