Author Topic: Do Souls have a Gender? (Read 8254 times)

RandallS · « **on:** October 12, 2012, 08:12:47 am »

Humans have gender (e.g. male/female -- in the least complex classification). Do our souls have gender?

Gilbride · « **Reply #1 on:** October 12, 2012, 09:03:54 am »

Quote from: RandallS;76435

Humans have gender (e.g. male/female -- in the least complex classification). Do our souls have gender?

Well, what do you mean by "soul"? Not everyone means the same thing by this. Not everyone believes we only have one each!

Shine · « **Reply #2 on:** October 12, 2012, 09:19:24 am »

Quote from: RandallS;76435

Humans have gender (e.g. male/female -- in the least complex classification). Do our souls have gender?

I think they do, but that's because my idea of the soul is pretty closely tied to the body.

Sage · « **Reply #3 on:** October 12, 2012, 09:34:40 am »

Quote from: RandallS;76435

Humans have gender (e.g. male/female -- in the least complex classification). Do our souls have gender?

I don't believe in souls or any part of us that's both eternal and keeps any of our identity with us into death, so this is all a thought experiment for me.

Gender seems to be a complex thing that people do, express, and live through that is part nature, part nurture. If I accept the idea that there is some eternal part of humans that is also human-like (in terms of gender, at least), then yeah. Maybe that explains why people like me are born with female bodies, socialized as female, and struggle madly with gender dysphoria. Something does not match between the inside and the outside. Maybe it's a soul to a body. (Though I'm more likely to point my finger at society for being so fsked up stupid when it comes to enforcing the gender binary.)

Nyktelios · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2012, 01:45:15 pm »

Quote from: RandallS;76435

Humans have gender (e.g. male/female -- in the least complex classification). Do our souls have gender?

The word "soul" is heavy with Christian connotations, but speaking generally about the spiritual component of a human individual, no, I don't think they have gender or sex. I think the male-female distinction is unique to the physical experience, though instead of the soul or spirit being sexless, I think they contain the essence of both/all sexes.

SkySamuelle · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2012, 02:43:09 pm »

Quote from: RandallS;76435

Humans have gender (e.g. male/female -- in the least complex classification). Do our souls have gender?

While we might incarnate often enough in any any gender -eternity is long, after all- most of what I have read seems to indicate souls tend to 'specialize' toward some side of the spectrum, be it a accidental or not. Of course, it's entirely possible that some souls are preferentially/prevalently female, some are preferentially/prevalently male and some are equally open to both genders or even genderqueer. I personally think of it as more of a 'polarity' than a gender - there are probably many, many shades in that particular spectrum.

Maps · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2012, 04:55:03 pm »

Quote from: RandallS;76435

Humans have gender (e.g. male/female -- in the least complex classification). Do our souls have gender?

Nah. Gender is a social construct, and therefore part of the mortal ego, which I firmly believe souls/spirits drop when they... cross over or become part of the ancestor collective or prepare for being reborn and stuff like that.

Sage · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2012, 05:31:55 pm »

Quote from: Maps;76483

Nah. Gender is a social construct, and therefore part of the mortal ego, which I firmly believe souls/spirits drop when they... cross over or become part of the ancestor collective or prepare for being reborn and stuff like that.

*ahem*

I'm not sure if it's correct to say that gender is 100% a social construct - because I was 100% raised female, and we can all see how that turned out. The problem with just pointing a finger at nurture is that it can overlook the numerous trans* narratives where there is something wrong inside a person when put in comparison to that social construct.

That said, I do like the idea of gender as being something that gets shucked ("mortal ego" is a great term) if there's part of us that goes on. Though on the other hand, being queer (in so many areas of my life) is such a defining aspect of who I am that I really don't think that anything devoid of it would still be me. But it seems like there's a distinction between the "me" and the hypothetical soul I have.

Maps · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2012, 06:06:07 pm »

Quote from: Sage;76485

*ahem*

I'm not sure if it's correct to say that gender is 100% a social construct - because I was 100% raised female, and we can all see how that turned out. The problem with just pointing a finger at nurture is that it can overlook the numerous trans* narratives where there is something wrong inside a person when put in comparison to that social construct.

That said, I do like the idea of gender as being something that gets shucked ("mortal ego" is a great term) if there's part of us that goes on. Though on the other hand, being queer (in so many areas of my life) is such a defining aspect of who I am that I really don't think that anything devoid of it would still be me. But it seems like there's a distinction between the "me" and the hypothetical soul I have.

There are still a lot of trans* individuals that acknowledge that what's coded as "masculine" and "feminine" are pretty damn arbitrary, and I see a lot of writing on the subject of struggling with wanting to fit into gender stereotypes that they're not supposed to have because of their bits. I understand that wanting to fit the construct has a lot to do with being very clearly read as the gender that they are on the inside, and the trauma and heartache involved in not meeting those standards and therefore not being gendered appropriately. I follow some non-op trans* blogs too, and they have a lot of interesting things to say on the subject.

Not trying to speak for anyone, but those are the threads I've listened to that have informed my personal opinion. I don't think it's ignoring them, I think it's actually totally inclusive of them in a more... overarching way.

Until we can have access to a "control group" of people that are raised with zero gender constructs to see if they still arise (aside from the tendency toward penis = semen, uterus = pregnancy, or testosterone = muscle mass/hair) then gender as 100%, or at least 99%, social construct is still the best model I've encountered that seems to fit everything I've read. I don't think bits should dictate pronouns, I don't think that hormones should dictate pronouns, I don't think behaviors should dictate pronouns. (And the unfortunate reality is that there are trans* people who are very much essentialist that do believe this stuff and don't believe in nonbinaries.)

MadZealot · « **Reply #9 on:** October 12, 2012, 06:10:51 pm »

Quote from: Sage;76485

Though on the other hand, being queer (in so many areas of my life) is such a defining aspect of who I am that I really don't think that anything devoid of it would still be me. But it seems like there's a distinction between the "me" and the hypothetical soul I have.

Perhaps we bring that essential "me"-ness with us into this life, and what Sky called polarity (great term BTW) is expressed as gender in the physical. If there are many (energetic?) greys along that spectrum it could account for variations in 'masculine'/'feminine' expressions.

If that makes sense.

RandallS · « **Reply #10 on:** October 12, 2012, 06:27:47 pm »

Quote from: Gilbride;76438

Well, what do you mean by "soul"? Not everyone means the same thing by this. Not everyone believes we only have one each!

Pick your meaning and let us know what it is. Seriously -- I did not want to be very specific do to the large number of different religions and beliefs represented on TC.

SunflowerP · « **Reply #11 on:** October 12, 2012, 11:39:40 pm »

Quote from: Sage;76485

I'm not sure if it's correct to say that gender is 100% a social construct - because I was 100% raised female, and we can all see how that turned out. The problem with just pointing a finger at nurture is that it can overlook the numerous trans* narratives where there is something wrong inside a person when put in comparison to that social construct.

Hmm... There's something about this that I want to challenge (not necessarily disagreement per se, possibly just a matter of discussion/development of nuance), but I'm having trouble putting a finger on it. I think it has to do with possible conflation, of "gender as social construct" with "binary gender as social construct". The latter is an instance of the former, but not the only possible instance.

I think quite a lot of non-binary gender (or non-binary gender identification, not quite the same thing) is socially constructed, in the sense that there's a component of social interaction involved - a lot of it is in response to societal/cultural expectations, even when it's a defiant response, or a "no, that stuff has nothing to do with me" response.

So, there's "socially constructed" in the sense of "constructed by the extant dominant society/culture", and "socially constructed" in the sense of "constructed for use in a social context". Need Moar Wordz!

I often wonder whether there's something innate, underlying the social constructions; I have NO CLUE. I know that people are really, really habituated to the concept of gendering (consider how feminists of the "there is no such thing! it's just a made-up social construct!" school are prone to transferring gendered assumptions over to sex/morphology, and thus falling into the essentialism that the "gender is a social construct; biology is not destiny" ideas were supposed to get away from), even when they're not being binarist about it. But is that because there's gender independent of social constructs, or because having some social construct of gender is universal as far back as we know anything about (at any rate, I don't know of any human culture, present or past, that lacks one completely)?

I think there is a something - that has to do with sense of self and suchlike - but I also think it's quite possible that "gender" isn't necessarily the right word for it, at least not for everyone.

Which segues into an answer to the original question - I can't answer it because not only am I not sure what a soul is, I don't really know what gender is... and that starts me wondering about just what might be meant by "to have". (Fortunately, I feel like I have a pretty good grip on indefinite articles:).)

Or, maybe I can: because so much of gender is socially constructed, whether or not there's anything else to it, then any gender a soul has will inevitably be influenced in some way by social construction. If souls reincarnate, a given soul might well experience various constructions, so I reject the idea of a reincarnating soul having a single consistent and persistent gender through multiple lifetimes. So - do souls have gender? Beats me. Do souls have a gender? Nope.

Sunflower

Maps · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2012, 12:01:41 am »

Quote from: SunflowerP;76500

Hmm... There's something about this that I want to challenge (not necessarily disagreement per se, possibly just a matter of discussion/development of nuance), but I'm having trouble putting a finger on it. I think it has to do with possible conflation, of "gender as social construct" with "binary gender as social construct". The latter is an instance of the former, but not the only possible instance.

I think quite a lot of non-binary gender (or non-binary gender identification, not quite the same thing) is socially constructed, in the sense that there's a component of social interaction involved - a lot of it is in response to societal/cultural expectations, even when it's a defiant response, or a "no, that stuff has nothing to do with me" response.

So, there's "socially constructed" in the sense of "constructed by the extant dominant society/culture", and "socially constructed" in the sense of "constructed for use in a social context". Need Moar Wordz!

I often wonder whether there's something innate, underlying the social constructions; I have NO CLUE. I know that people are really, really habituated to the concept of gendering (consider how feminists of the "there is no such thing! it's just a made-up social construct!" school are prone to transferring gendered assumptions over to sex/morphology, and thus falling into the essentialism that the "gender is a social construct; biology is not destiny" ideas were supposed to get away from), even when they're not being binarist about it. But is that because there's gender independent of social constructs, or because having some social construct of gender is universal as far back as we know anything about (at any rate, I don't know of any human culture, present or past, that lacks one completely)?

I think there is a something - that has to do with sense of self and suchlike - but I also think it's quite possible that "gender" isn't necessarily the right word for it, at least not for everyone.

Which segues into an answer to the original question - I can't answer it because not only am I not sure what a soul is, I don't really know what gender is... and that starts me wondering about just what might be meant by "to have". (Fortunately, I feel like I have a pretty good grip on indefinite articles:).)

Or, maybe I can: because so much of gender is socially constructed, whether or not there's anything else to it, then any gender a soul has will inevitably be influenced in some way by social construction. If souls reincarnate, a given soul might well experience various constructions, so I reject the idea of a reincarnating soul having a single consistent and persistent gender through multiple lifetimes. So - do souls have gender? Beats me. Do souls have a gender? Nope.

Sunflower

I think a lot of the time it's more of just having behavior sets and body language that is generally coded as male or female. Again, not speaking for trans* people, but back in my days of seriously considering what it would be like to have male-coded bits, I was intrigued by the fact that if I suddenly had those bits, then I'd be "allowed" to act more masculine, which was already in my nature. Long story short I realized that I didn't need to transition or go on T to act like, for all intents and purposes, a guy. And moreover, I can be whatever guy I want to be on my masculine days, even if it's a girly guy.

But I think, yeah. The social concept of traditional gender roles is always going to be something that -everyone- is going to go their whole lives either living by or fighting against. There's no third option because nobody lives outside of a gendered society.

Love the bolded part, though.

Sharysa · « **Reply #13 on:** October 13, 2012, 12:16:14 am »

Quote from: RandallS;76435

Humans have gender (e.g. male/female -- in the least complex classification). Do our souls have gender?

Tealdeer: A soul's personality can frequently lead to preferences or tendencies for a certain gender, but in my opinion the soul itself doesn't have a set gender identity. There's a significant amount of "nature vs. nurture" argument that leads me to personally believe that souls don't have a set gender, but they can choose it.

Long Version:
In literally nine out of ten past incarnations I've been told about by my ancestors, I was very, very female. According to the shamanic group I've been working with, there are spiritual "inheritances" or tendencies that run throughout people's lives. They range from appearance/personality traits, to beliefs and abilities, to the same or similar events happening in different lifetimes. And it stands to reason that the tendencies would run towards a certain gender as well.

My personality tendencies run towards "extremely spiritual/artistic and intelligent," and my physical tendencies run towards a slight build, with dark (and often very long) hair. A related trend is that people in my lives take on protective roles, and in many cultures, people would view "intelligent and spiritual with long hair" as unquestionably "female" traits.

I was male in only one of the lives I know about. But aside from gender, I was still an emotionally-neglected artist whose only close relationship was with my older brother. I get the feeling that I was mainly "trying out" being male in that life, and given that many of my ancestors are from later times and I'm their sister or daughter, it seems that I just prefer being female.

I think that while physical gender has POTENTIAL to change a lot of things, the soul's essence won't be that affected; in many cases, one's culture and time-period frequently has more say in perceptions of gender than the actual soul. The time-period and social-status where I was male happened to be that of a medieval (or Victorian?) aristocrat--my family thought I was odd, but nobody thought I was "too feminine" or homosexual, like they might in modern Western societies. And gender was no object for my discontent in that life--I was unhappy because the only person who made an effort to understand me was my brother, not because I felt like I was in the wrong body or "not masculine enough."

As for gender-identity disorders, it's hard to say how much is psychological and how much is a medical condition--but on a spiritual front, I think the soul would either have made a mistake (if you believe souls only have a limited view of the future, as I do) or deliberately chosen to reincarnate as the "wrong" gender (if you believe they know everything that happens in their lives before they incarnate physically).

After all, gender-reassignment is a very recent option and even that would take several years and lots of money; go back a few decades or just be unable to afford it, and people who feel that they're the wrong physical gender would just have to live with it. Hell, even the souls who know they'll opt for gender-reassignment will know that they'll have years of discontent before they can choose to undergo the actual process, while getting lots of trouble from other people.

And then there's how my ancestors screw with gender roles. One of my past-mothers is sweet, gentle, and nurturing, which just screams "FEMALE" to a modern Western society. But a past-father and past-boyfriend give very similar nurturing/gentle vibes and still strongly identify as male, while two more past-mothers were VIOLENTLY protective of me when I was with them and are currently the first ones I call on for protection on the spiritual plane.

So I think that the soul can express itself as male/female, but the soul itself doesn't have gender like humans understand it to be.

Darkhawk · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2012, 01:24:48 pm »

Quote from: SunflowerP;76500

I think quite a lot of non-binary gender (or non-binary gender identification, not quite the same thing) is socially constructed, in the sense that there's a component of social interaction involved - a lot of it is in response to societal/cultural expectations, even when it's a defiant response, or a "no, that stuff has nothing to do with me" response.

My experience with gender is that it's hard to talk about coherently because it is simultaneously two things: an internal experience, and a relationship with how I am seen by others.

I have had times - as a genderfluid/genderqueer person - when I could not comfortably leave my home because there was no way that I could present myself so that I could be seen correctly, and I just didn't have the spoons to go through a day outside knowing that I was helplessly unable to put forward the truth of my experience in that moment.

There's a lot of complexity to be had in the liminal space that includes sense-of-self, what-others-see, and the completely socially constructed "What behaviour/presentation models do we, within this cultural context, recognise?"

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Author Topic: Do Souls have a Gender? (Read 8254 times)

RandallS

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Gilbride

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Shine

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Sage

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Nyktelios

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SkySamuelle

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Maps

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Sage

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Maps

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