The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

I'm not very familiar with ancient Greek religion and culture, so I was wondering if folks here could help me out in exploring this particular subject...

Poking around online recently, I came across an interesting article by Thista Minai on the concept of virginity in ancient Greek culture, in which she draws on what I guess you could call Greek metaphysics about the symmetry of the body to explain why virginity was an important aspect of feminine independence. She asks why the goddess Artemis would choose to abstain from sex, and then goes on to offer an answer:

The answer to this question can be found by studying the oracle of Apollo at Delphi. The Pythia was a virgin priestess of Apollo who gave prophecies from the God in His temple at Delphi. Sissa tells us (again in Greek Virginity) that vapors coming from a crack in the earth induced a hallucinogenic trance in which the Pythia delivered these oracles. The fumes entered the Pythia's vagina as she sat on a tripod perched over the chasm. Sissa goes on to explain how the significance of this lies in the ancient Greek perception of symmetry in the human body: the ancient Greeks believed the body to be symmetrical not only horizontally, but vertically as well. Thus the vagina and the mouth corresponded to one other. Therefore, when the essence of Apollo, in the form of fumes emitted from the earth, entered the Pythia through her vagina, it was logical to the ancient Greeks that this essence would then exit her body through her mouth in the form of divine prophecies. In order for the Greeks to be absolutely certain that all the words escaping her lips were sent by the God Himself and only Him, the Pythia must be completely pure and devoid of outside influences, i.e. chaste. In this way the authenticity of her oracles were guaranteed, because the only things coming out of her mouth were the same things that went into her 'mouth.'

This is really interesting and seems to make a lot of sense... But it contradicts what I've read elsewhere about the Pythia. Most importantly, that she was not actually a virgin. From what I understand, the emphasis on purity and chastity of the Oracle was pretty high at least originally, and during the resurgence of interest in her during the Victorian era she was often portrayed as a lithe, young, swooning creature. But though initially this may have been the case, after an episode during which one of the Oracles was kidnapped and raped, the Delphians passed a law specifically stating that the Oracles could not be virgins, but had to be middle-aged-to-elderly women who had already had husbands and families (and were, presumably, more knowledgeable about the world, which may have aided in their ability to deliver wise and appropriate prophecies).

Then there's the fact that the Pythia breathed in the intoxicating fumes through mouth and nose, not through her "mouth".... though I don't know if the ancient Greeks knew this or not, it seems like they could probably have been able to tell the difference. (After all, they accurately reported many of the other details about how the prophesying worked, even down to the oddly sweet smell of the ethylene and the way the fumes ceased during cold winter months.)

So I'm wondering how these two accounts of the virginity of the Oracle at Delphi are reconciled, especially in relation to her visions and her relative autonomy as a powerful figure in ancient Greek society.... and how the concept of virginity plays out for modern Pagans today who worship virgin goddesses like Athena and Artemis?

Like I said, I really don't know much of anything about ancient Greek culture except what I've written here (and maybe I'm getting my facts wrong?), so I'd be really curious to hear thoughts and opinions from people with more background than me! Thanks!

--Ali

/snip

If the oracle was taking in the fumes, and by default taking in the gift of the god repeatedly would she still be classed as a virgin?

I agree with iulla that applying our definition of virginity to the Ancient Greek outlook would skew the meanings a little though the virgin thing has made one hell of a good story for the past however many years in recorded history.

and how the concept of virginity plays out for modern Pagans today who worship virgin goddesses like Athena and Artemis?

 
Frankly, considering the overemphasis on sex in modern Paganism, and all the virgin-shaming in modern Western society in general, honoring the virgin goddesses is actually rather refreshing.

Cannon say much about connection between virginity and the Delphic Oracle at the moment, but definitely adding Giulia Sissa's book (if I can find it in print) to my reading list.

So I'm wondering how these two accounts of the virginity of the Oracle at Delphi are reconciled, especially in relation to her visions and her relative autonomy as a powerful figure in ancient Greek society.... and how the concept of virginity plays out for modern Pagans today who worship virgin goddesses like Athena and Artemis?

I don't know very much myself, but I've done my share of headscratching over the seeming inconsistencies. Fact is, our definition of virginity is different from the ancient Greeks'. How much so... not so sure.

I think (but don't quote me) that a virgin was an unmarried woman. As long as there was no proof - as in children - that she had had sex, she retained that title. The Pythia may or may not have been an actual virgin, but she was certainly required to remain chaste for the term of her service.

Virgin goddesses, on the other hand, certainly had each her own standards of purity. Artemis certainly wanted her followers untouched, considering all the transformations that happened to the unlucky nymphs that didn't resist hard enough. Athena (or Hestia, or Hecate, for that matter) doesn't seem to have such hangups.

Virgin goddesses, on the other hand, certainly had each her own standards of purity. Artemis certainly wanted her followers untouched, considering all the transformations that happened to the unlucky nymphs that didn't resist hard enough. Athena (or Hestia, or Hecate, for that matter) doesn't seem to have such hangups.

 
I have to admit, I find the Greek myths hard to handle sometimes because of the amount of rape in them. Is Artemis revenging herself against promiscuous women who were unfaithful to their vows of chastity, or is she punishing the victims of sexual assault (as seems to be the case in a lot of the stories)? This seems to me to be problematic, if it's the latter. Plus, it does kind of suggest that for the ancient Greeks it was about sex, and not marriage, at least to a certain extent.

What's also kind of interesting is that, etymologically, the word "nymph" is related to the Greek term nymphe, meaning "bride," which was the second of three stages of life for a woman, during the period of time when she was married but had not yet had her first child. (The first stage was the maiden, parthenos, and the third that of an "adult" woman, after giving birth to her first child, who was called a gyne, if I'm remembering correctly.)

As someone who is recently married but child-free by choice, that means that according to the ancient Greek definition, I'll be a nymph for the rest of my life, I guess.

--Ali

hence, the ongoing debate among Hellenic Recons, which period in the history of Ancient Greece exactly one should use as a basis for modern practice

 
I've been looking for the source on the chastity of the Oracle -- in several different places (including William Broad's book, which is where I think I first saw it), I've seen mention of Diodorus Siculus describing how initially she was a young unmarried virgin but, after an abduction and rape, a law was passed that the Oracle could not be a virgin but had to be an older women (I guess with the implication that older women would not be tempting to a rapist?). But I can't find any exact source for where this appears in his writings, or any information about when this change took place.

Pretty much the only information I can find is the reiteration that "ancient Greeks thought about virginity differently than we do in modern times".... but that seems slightly like a side issue to me. What I'm interested in knowing is, if virginity was viewed differently (even at different times throughout the history of ancient Greece), then exactly how do those differences play out in their theology of virgin goddesses? What is the spiritual and/or ritual significance of chastity, in that case? Was it about control/ownership/power, or was there some other metaphysical or socio-political aspect to it? Or a combination of both?

And then, how does that influence modern Pagan practice and polytheism today? I've heard modern Pagans interpret the meaning of virginity in this case to be anything from literal abstinence from sex, to opposite end of the spectrum, a kind of feminine empowerment that puts the sexual freedom (and the freedom to have as much sex as you like) at its very center.... And these seem so completely different to me, I wonder how they're reconciled by modern Pagans, if there's any sense that they're actually worshipping the same goddesses at all in that case... and how they ground it back in their sense of history....

Pretty much the only information I can find is the reiteration that "ancient Greeks thought about virginity differently than we do in modern times".... but that seems slightly like a side issue to me. What I'm interested in knowing is, if virginity was viewed differently (even at different times throughout the history of ancient Greece), then exactly how do those differences play out in their theology of virgin goddesses? What is the spiritual and/or ritual significance of chastity, in that case? Was it about control/ownership/power, or was there some other metaphysical or socio-political aspect to it? Or a combination of both?

And then, how does that influence modern Pagan practice and polytheism today? I've heard modern Pagans interpret the meaning of virginity in this case to be anything from literal abstinence from sex, to opposite end of the spectrum, a kind of feminine empowerment that puts the sexual freedom (and the freedom to have as much sex as you like) at its very center.... And these seem so completely different to me, I wonder how they're reconciled by modern Pagans, if there's any sense that they're actually worshipping the same goddesses at all in that case... and how they ground it back in their sense of history....

 
Okay, let me try with the limited time I have right now. 'Virgin' in ancient Greece generally meant 'unmarried'. Hekate, a virgin maiden Goddess, had sexual relationships with multiple men but still classified as a virgin Goddess. Virginity was not the same as being chaste. Contrary to Hera and Aphrodity; Athena, Artemis, Hekate and Hestia simply refused to get married.

I severely doubt this was a 'feminist move' on Their part, but was probably more a matter of staying out of the 'love' and 'marriage' portfolios of the other Goddesses.

As for modern practice; if anything, followers of a virgin Goddess cult could refrain from marriage (which also includes living with a partner, by the way, as moving in together was basically getting married). Still, modern Hellenics tend to follow the pantheon, so there is no need to refrain from God or Goddess specific no-no's. Hellenic (ethical, pious, etc.) living is far more important than following the teachings of specific cults.

I
And then, how does that influence modern Pagan practice and polytheism today? I've heard modern Pagans interpret the meaning of virginity in this case to be anything from literal abstinence from sex, to opposite end of the spectrum, a kind of feminine empowerment that puts the sexual freedom (and the freedom to have as much sex as you like) at its very center.... And these seem so completely different to me, I wonder how they're reconciled by modern Pagans, if there's any sense that they're actually worshipping the same goddesses at all in that case... and how they ground it back in their sense of history....

 
Well, there were plenty of people who worshiped these goddesses during the Hellenic period, both men and women, who were not virgins, in either the modern or ancient meaning. I don't see why modern worshipers would need to be.