Hermes and Mercury (We go 'round again)

[NibbleKat]

Okay. I know I've read (at least at the old Cauldron site) a thread regarding Hermes vs. Mercury. I know that people are very polar about Hermes not being Mercury. But the more I'm reading on my short little lunch break, the less I'm seeing the differences. I've seen that Mercury might have been possibly based on the Etruscan god Turms, but didn't evolve from a direct local god, perhaps also?

The Romans re-wrote a lot of his stories and myths, so it all gets tangled for me.

So much of what Hermes does is what Mercury does. Could someone tell me (with reliable sources for me to look at, if possible) where to find things I can put my finger on that will really show me that the two aren't one, that Hermes didn't just wiggle his wily little way into the Roman pantheon? I know a lot might rely on UPG, but I'm less interested in that, because my UPG right now is saying that they're the same (even if the rest of the Roman pantheon is NOT the Greek one). I work better when it comes to things like this with sources, rather than UPG... That comes later!



Hallllp!

[Nachtigall]

Okay. I know I've read (at least at the old Cauldron site) a thread regarding Hermes vs. Mercury. I know that people are very polar about Hermes not being Mercury. But the more I'm reading on my short little lunch break, the less I'm seeing the differences. I've seen that Mercury might have been possibly based on the Etruscan god Turms, but didn't evolve from a direct local god, perhaps also?

The Romans re-wrote a lot of his stories and myths, so it all gets tangled for me.

So much of what Hermes does is what Mercury does. Could someone tell me (with reliable sources for me to look at, if possible) where to find things I can put my finger on that will really show me that the two aren't one, that Hermes didn't just wiggle his wily little way into the Roman pantheon? I know a lot might rely on UPG, but I'm less interested in that, because my UPG right now is saying that they're the same (even if the rest of the Roman pantheon is NOT the Greek one). I work better when it comes to things like this with sources, rather than UPG... That comes later!

Hallllp!

What type of sources do you wish to see?
The issue of hard/soft/in-between polytheism is based in individual theological beliefs... I can't think of any way that it can be proved or disproved by archeological sources.

[SkySamuelle]

Okay. I know I've read (at least at the old Cauldron site) a thread regarding Hermes vs. Mercury. I know that people are very polar about Hermes not being Mercury. But the more I'm reading on my short little lunch break, the less I'm seeing the differences. I've seen that Mercury might have been possibly based on the Etruscan god Turms, but didn't evolve from a direct local god, perhaps also?

The Romans re-wrote a lot of his stories and myths, so it all gets tangled for me.

So much of what Hermes does is what Mercury does. Could someone tell me (with reliable sources for me to look at, if possible) where to find things I can put my finger on that will really show me that the two aren't one, that Hermes didn't just wiggle his wily little way into the Roman pantheon? I know a lot might rely on UPG, but I'm less interested in that, because my UPG right now is saying that they're the same (even if the rest of the Roman pantheon is NOT the Greek one). I work better when it comes to things like this with sources, rather than UPG... That comes later!

Hallllp!

My only direct experience is with Hermes, but intuitively I keep dissociating Him from Mercury so wholly that I am nearly amused. A lot of it for me is the fact Hermes as I know Him is a gentle -until He favors it, at least- trickster and the lord of chance - Mercury is the patron of a blogger I follow, and reading her account on Him helped me to grasp the differences a bit better:

http://wanderingwomanwondering.wordp...e-god-mercury/

Intuitively, my mind keeps thinking of Mercury as more 'domestic', more associated with commercial ventures than the changing tides of luck (and Hermes is that shift of tides between good and bad fortune for me).

Wandering Woman introduces Mercury as a god of exchange in all forms, and that includes comunication ... there are a lot of links to articles related solely to Mercurius on the bottom of her post, so there's more than UPG to read here.

[NibbleKat]

What type of sources do you wish to see?
The issue of hard/soft/in-between polytheism is based in individual theological beliefs... I can't think of any way that it can be proved or disproved by archeological sources.

Yeah, those are the types that I'd like to see... archaeolgical or something in a text contemporary to the Romans/Greeks, etc...

[NibbleKat]

My only direct experience is with Hermes, but intuitively I keep dissociating Him from Mercury so wholly that I am nearly amused. A lot of it for me is the fact Hermes as I know Him is a gentle -until He favors it, at least- trickster and the lord of chance - Mercury is the patron of a blogger I follow, and reading her account on Him helped me to grasp the differences a bit better:

http://wanderingwomanwondering.wordp...e-god-mercury/

Intuitively, my mind keeps thinking of Mercury as more 'domestic', more associated with commercial ventures than the changing tides of luck (and Hermes is that shift of tides between good and bad fortune for me).

Wandering Woman introduces Mercury as a god of exchange in all forms, and that includes comunication ... there are a lot of links to articles related solely to Mercurius on the bottom of her post, so there's more than UPG to read here.

AM coming back to this; no time now, but maybe tomorrow. Sneaking a peek at work right now. Heheheh.

[LiminalAuggie]

So much of what Hermes does is what Mercury does. Could someone tell me (with reliable sources for me to look at, if possible) where to find things I can put my finger on that will really show me that the two aren't one, that Hermes didn't just wiggle his wily little way into the Roman pantheon? I know a lot might rely on UPG, but I'm less interested in that, because my UPG right now is saying that they're the same (even if the rest of the Roman pantheon is NOT the Greek one). I work better when it comes to things like this with sources, rather than UPG... That comes later!

Hallllp!

I'm sort of in the same boat but coming from the other side, looking at Celtic guys who were syncretized with Mercury, so I'm not sure if any of this is going to be helpful to you, but here's some things I've dug up in my web-travels:

Here's an essay on Ceisiwr Serith's website about Cernunnos, I think aiming for identifying an Indo-European god of Between Things, with some discussion and images of how Mercury gets represented in places where the Romans came in contact with other cultures.

This is a French site from an archaeology group with a rundown of the shift in statuary from really Hellenistic attributes to really Gallic ones. I just used Chrome's translate function and I can preeetty much follow what they're saying, grammar oddities aside.

Turms seems really hard to pin down? Possibly because the Etruscans seemed to collect foreign cultural ideas like magpies, but from what I can tell he might have originally been way more chthonic than Hermes or Mercury, generally, but his role got expanded in later times. This blog has some good notes on how to approach Etruscan mythology, I think.

[NibbleKat]

My only direct experience is with Hermes, but intuitively I keep dissociating Him from Mercury so wholly that I am nearly amused. A lot of it for me is the fact Hermes as I know Him is a gentle -until He favors it, at least- trickster and the lord of chance - Mercury is the patron of a blogger I follow, and reading her account on Him helped me to grasp the differences a bit better:

http://wanderingwomanwondering.wordp...e-god-mercury/

Intuitively, my mind keeps thinking of Mercury as more 'domestic', more associated with commercial ventures than the changing tides of luck (and Hermes is that shift of tides between good and bad fortune for me).

Wandering Woman introduces Mercury as a god of exchange in all forms, and that includes comunication ... there are a lot of links to articles related solely to Mercurius on the bottom of her post, so there's more than UPG to read here.

I've been able to get halfway through the blog post so far (no net access at home means I'm at the mercy of when I can get on here at work), and the bits I've read still sound like Hermes. However, I am not ALL the way through, so my opinion may change. Thanks for the links.

[NibbleKat]

I'm sort of in the same boat but coming from the other side, looking at Celtic guys who were syncretized with Mercury, so I'm not sure if any of this is going to be helpful to you, but here's some things I've dug up in my web-travels:

Here's an essay on Ceisiwr Serith's website about Cernunnos, I think aiming for identifying an Indo-European god of Between Things, with some discussion and images of how Mercury gets represented in places where the Romans came in contact with other cultures.

This is a French site from an archaeology group with a rundown of the shift in statuary from really Hellenistic attributes to really Gallic ones. I just used Chrome's translate function and I can preeetty much follow what they're saying, grammar oddities aside.

Turms seems really hard to pin down? Possibly because the Etruscans seemed to collect foreign cultural ideas like magpies, but from what I can tell he might have originally been way more chthonic than Hermes or Mercury, generally, but his role got expanded in later times. This blog has some good notes on how to approach Etruscan mythology, I think.

Will try to explore these links soon-- thank you for them. The one thing that I was thinking about this morning on the way to work re: Hermes/MERCURY/Gaul/Celts is that yes, the Romans stuck Mercury's name on a lot of Celtic gods, which would have meant something different for the Celts... but what would it have meant to the Roman soldiers (providing they were actually Roman and not say, Germans in the Roman army, etc)? Would they have seen this "Mercury" as THEIR version, or would they have taken the grafted-onto-version and seen him as a different deity?

It's hard for me to look at those statues of the Celtic deities that look like and are called Mercury and not just knee-jerk and say WOOHOO! It's MY god. Because he wasn't to so many folks back then... but like I said, who was he to the Roman "foreigners" in the region?

[NibbleKat]

I'm sort of in the same boat but coming from the other side, looking at Celtic guys who were syncretized with Mercury, so I'm not sure if any of this is going to be helpful to you, but here's some things I've dug up in my web-travels:

Here's an essay on Ceisiwr Serith's website about Cernunnos, I think aiming for identifying an Indo-European god of Between Things, with some discussion and images of how Mercury gets represented in places where the Romans came in contact with other cultures.

This is a French site from an archaeology group with a rundown of the shift in statuary from really Hellenistic attributes to really Gallic ones. I just used Chrome's translate function and I can preeetty much follow what they're saying, grammar oddities aside.

Oh, boy. I really wish I knew French- and using Chrome like you, I still went a little cross-eyed at the translation. heheheh.

[Carnelian]

Okay. I know I've read (at least at the old Cauldron site) a thread regarding Hermes vs. Mercury. I know that people are very polar about Hermes not being Mercury. But the more I'm reading on my short little lunch break, the less I'm seeing the differences. I've seen that Mercury might have been possibly based on the Etruscan god Turms, but didn't evolve from a direct local god, perhaps also?

The Romans re-wrote a lot of his stories and myths, so it all gets tangled for me.

So much of what Hermes does is what Mercury does. Could someone tell me (with reliable sources for me to look at, if possible) where to find things I can put my finger on that will really show me that the two aren't one, that Hermes didn't just wiggle his wily little way into the Roman pantheon? I know a lot might rely on UPG, but I'm less interested in that, because my UPG right now is saying that they're the same (even if the rest of the Roman pantheon is NOT the Greek one). I work better when it comes to things like this with sources, rather than UPG... That comes later!

Hallllp!

I had a Latin/Roman professor who told my class once that Mercury wasn't a native Italian god, just the Greek Hermes given a different name. I don't know any primary sources to back that up, but I have no doubt he knew what he was talking about.

Greek and Roman cultures were so connected, it's hard to completely distinguish between their gods, anyway. You have gods like Zeus and Jupiter who share origins as the Indo-Europeam sky father, not to mention that there were many Greek settlements in Italy when Rome was founded, so they had always been an influence. Roman culture had Etruscan influence, who themselves were highly influenced by Greek culture. Rome was primarily a mix of Latin, Etruscan, and Greek peoples and cultures, not its own separate group, so many aspects of Greek culture were part of Rome from the beginning, not to mention the Indo-European connection. Of course it did develop into its own unique culture, but it originated in part as an offshoot of Greek culture (as Greece was a Near Eastern offshoot), so even if one follows that trendy new age "hard" polytheism where every single deity with a different name is treated like an distinct individual, many Greek and Roman deities began as the same deity. Not all of them did, I think the major ones were Jupiter, Mercury, and Apollo. However, since the Romans equated their native gods with Greek deities (Venus with Aphrodite, etc.) they clearly saw cultural differences as superficial and believed the gods were the same in every culture, as the Greeks did with Mesopotamian and Egyptian gods.