Author Topic: UPG: Celtic/Norse crossover (Read 2641 times)

Faemon · « **on:** July 23, 2012, 07:06:03 am »

A bit of personal background: I was utterly enamored and infatuated with this one person, but some differences of opinion (such as that I'm morally obliged to live with an abusive, alcoholic family member because they're family, and that a perpetrator of sexual abuse would rightfully with enough money buy the silence and complacency of their victim,) kind of completely curdled my affections. I now think that this person is despicable. I feel that this person is despicable.

But my mind has been turning back to this person, lately, and not with complete hatred-- and I wanted that to stop. I don't want to go back to the hatred, I just want them out of sight and out of mind. I meditate-- have been practicing consistently for several years, and so I like to think that I'm disciplined with my thoughts. With this sort of fixation, though, I felt that there was something more to it that I wasn't mature enough to process and release.

So, I asked Manannán mac Lir to refer me to someone who might be able to lend some guidance in this matter. We had made this agreement years before, that simply involved a removal of some painful memories of mine, that just... didn't turn out well. At all. So, rather than do that again, I requested this other way.

And Manannán agreed. In a meditation, he took me on a journey at the end of which I was introduced to Óengus Og. Óengus essentially replied with, "I cannot help you."

Fair enough, it was worth asking, and that had been a lovely trip regardless.

Much later, this person came to mind with what pretty much had me mentally screaming, "Get off me oh gods help!" And Óengus reappeared, much more irritable than I remembered, seeming to say, "Not this again! Figure it out! Deal with it yourself!" It was harsh.

This is where it gets strange. Another Óengus Og form emerged, closer to the quality and mood that I'd first met him in. He faced the other, seemingly irritated Óengus.

A psychic mentor of mine had taught me a sort of spell, to recite to any entities that I met, and it would force them to identify themselves truthfully. I never used it, because, frankly, by my experience? In the astral realms, everything emanates a concept. There are no words that would be misspoken, and no appearance that would be misrepresented. Sure, one might ignore the intuitive voice at one's peril, or jump to a conclusion without the journey, and I can buy that some people and entities can have psychic "privacy settings", but for the most part... I think... what you sense is what you get.

Well, I didn't know Óengus Og very well. The seemingly irritated Óengus became seemingly amused, when I finished saying the spell, and identified himself as...

...Loki.

The original Óengus seemed to take the whole thing in stride, just watching it happen, and listening-- and, "Loki" seemed to have a lot to communicate, but I emerged from that mindstate simply too flabbergasted to really remember. Forgive me for getting a mite prickly, but hey, I looked for Norse deities, a long time ago, and none of them ever answered. So obviously, I've accepted that I don't resonate-- and he, Loki, wasn't invited-- he had no purpose there, actually, the whole long speech was pretty casual and conversational-- I certainly had nothing to offer him. So I just-- I mean-- whut. Why. The Hel. I don't even--

So. What do you make of this, Cauldronites? Hard polytheists? Soft polytheists?

SkySamuelle · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2012, 08:20:28 am »

Quote from: triple_entendre;65593

A bit of personal background: I was utterly enamored and infatuated with this one person, but some differences of opinion (such as that I'm morally obliged to live with an abusive, alcoholic family member because they're family, and that a perpetrator of sexual abuse would rightfully with enough money buy the silence and complacency of their victim,) kind of completely curdled my affections. I now think that this person is despicable. I feel that this person is despicable.

But my mind has been turning back to this person, lately, and not with complete hatred-- and I wanted that to stop. I don't want to go back to the hatred, I just want them out of sight and out of mind. I meditate-- have been practicing consistently for several years, and so I like to think that I'm disciplined with my thoughts. With this sort of fixation, though, I felt that there was something more to it that I wasn't mature enough to process and release.

So, I asked Manannán mac Lir to refer me to someone who might be able to lend some guidance in this matter. We had made this agreement years before, that simply involved a removal of some painful memories of mine, that just... didn't turn out well. At all. So, rather than do that again, I requested this other way.

And Manannán agreed. In a meditation, he took me on a journey at the end of which I was introduced to Óengus Og. Óengus essentially replied with, "I cannot help you."

Fair enough, it was worth asking, and that had been a lovely trip regardless.

Much later, this person came to mind with what pretty much had me mentally screaming, "Get off me oh gods help!" And Óengus reappeared, much more irritable than I remembered, seeming to say, "Not this again! Figure it out! Deal with it yourself!" It was harsh.

This is where it gets strange. Another Óengus Og form emerged, closer to the quality and mood that I'd first met him in. He faced the other, seemingly irritated Óengus.

A psychic mentor of mine had taught me a sort of spell, to recite to any entities that I met, and it would force them to identify themselves truthfully. I never used it, because, frankly, by my experience? In the astral realms, everything emanates a concept. There are no words that would be misspoken, and no appearance that would be misrepresented. Sure, one might ignore the intuitive voice at one's peril, or jump to a conclusion without the journey, and I can buy that some people and entities can have psychic "privacy settings", but for the most part... I think... what you sense is what you get.

Well, I didn't know Óengus Og very well. The seemingly irritated Óengus became seemingly amused, when I finished saying the spell, and identified himself as...

...Loki.

The original Óengus seemed to take the whole thing in stride, just watching it happen, and listening-- and, "Loki" seemed to have a lot to communicate, but I emerged from that mindstate simply too flabbergasted to really remember. Forgive me for getting a mite prickly, but hey, I looked for Norse deities, a long time ago, and none of them ever answered. So obviously, I've accepted that I don't resonate-- and he, Loki, wasn't invited-- he had no purpose there, actually, the whole long speech was pretty casual and conversational-- I certainly had nothing to offer him. So I just-- I mean-- whut. Why. The Hel. I don't even--

So. What do you make of this, Cauldronites? Hard polytheists? Soft polytheists?

For what I know from reading about other people ' experiences with Loki, He is known to be a shapeshifter and it's not unusual for him to step in a situation forcing X person to confront Y issue that X person is stalling into facing in ways that can pass for brusque or even brutal.

I never interacted with Him, but it doesn't sound out of character for Loki to introduce himself under Oengus' guise -aka the guise of someone you had already called to in order to understand this issue - maybe to show you that while he has under his eye (hence his will to attract your attention this way?), this is a particular thing you should resolve/understand without deity-help in his opinion.

Maybe he thinks you have the ability to fix this by yourself but you are deceiving yourself about it and stalling resolution-the true Oengus subsequent appeareance seems to indicate He agrees with Loki as his response to Loki doesn't seem to be a negative one.

Faemon · « **Reply #2 on:** July 23, 2012, 11:29:21 am »

Quote from: SkySamuelle;65617

I never interacted with Him, but it doesn't sound out of character for Loki to introduce himself under Oengus' guise -aka the guise of someone you had already called to in order to understand this issue - maybe to show you that while he has under his eye (hence his will to attract your attention this way?), this is a particular thing you should resolve/understand without deity-help in his opinion.

Maybe he thinks you have the ability to fix this by yourself but you are deceiving yourself about it and stalling resolution-the true Oengus subsequent appeareance seems to indicate He agrees with Loki as his response to Loki doesn't seem to be a negative one.

That's a little funny, for a divine being to intervene to hammer the point home that, "You don't need divine intervention!" but then I suppose that's not advice I would take from anywhere else. :whis:

I wonder why this trickster god and not any other, though? Thinking on it now, (trying to remember if the Irish pantheon has a designated trickster of its own,) I suppose that what with all the jumping through loopholes in pledges, that many Celtic gods would have some of that trickster mindset by default. But of all the things in the world (and otherworld) to take in stride, from my mere mortal point of view, that was... a bizarre one. It's Loki. I should be more worried about being under his eye.

This is also the first time I've seen two deities from distinctly different pantheons actually interact with each other. Even when I kept solely to water deities, and water having this cohesive quality-- I noticed that they were rarely simultaneously present, and when they were they never spoke to each other, never teamed up, never argued or asked after any other water deity's opinion, and to mention the existence of another in the presence of one just never entered my mind to do. The occasion never came up. It just never happened.

So I was starting to guess that maybe the watery worlds that each one of them reside in are, still, as impenetrable to each other, as our physical realm to the non-physical... and then this happens.

Nyktipolos · « **Reply #3 on:** July 23, 2012, 11:41:39 am »

Quote from: triple_entendre;65593

So. What do you make of this, Cauldronites? Hard polytheists? Soft polytheists?

Coming at it from me perspective, it doesn't seem as weird to me. My interest is in Anglo-Saxon heathenry, and my UPG is that the two cultures (Germanic heathenism and the indigenous culture/religion of the British isles, including Ireland) intermingled quite a bit, to the point where the futhorc used in Anglo-Saxon heathenry contains Celtic elements to it.

Although WHY Loki would choose to imitate Oengus, I have no idea. (Or, if Manannan knew Loki would show up.) I suspect that's a quite you'd have to ask Him, really, if you want to know the answer. From what I gather from several Loki-folk, this seems like him: someone who wants you to work out your crap for yourself, and goads you on to do so. One thing I've taken to heart though is that one should not ask something of Him (or the other heathen gods) without something to offer in return, or else you run the risk of them taking something you weren't prepared to offer.

That, or He really is just harassing you to solve this problem on your own.

Rhyshadow · « **Reply #4 on:** July 23, 2012, 02:00:21 pm »

Quote from: triple_entendre;65593

So. What do you make of this, Cauldronites? Hard polytheists? Soft polytheists?

I'm personally of the opinion that when one's own pantheon can't give the exact help you need, they'll look outside

Myself, I count Brighid and Oghma as my Patrons - but standing at my shoulder is Var (Norse goddess of Oaths) because of something I need to do that I'm still working on.

Since Loki IS a god of change and adaption, sounds like he was the right one at that time.

Does it mean you have to work with him from now on? Of course not

But you can call him if needed, or not if he's not someone you want to associate with - I know there are those who look on him with disdain, all I can tell you is that the Lokeans (Loki followers) I know are friendly, helpful and quite accepting of other paths.

Faemon · « **Reply #5 on:** July 23, 2012, 09:11:57 pm »

Quote from: Nyktipolos;65644

Coming at it from me perspective, it doesn't seem as weird to me. My interest is in Anglo-Saxon heathenry, and my UPG is that the two cultures (Germanic heathenism and the indigenous culture/religion of the British isles, including Ireland) intermingled quite a bit, to the point where the futhorc used in Anglo-Saxon heathenry contains Celtic elements to it.

That's interesting! So it seems deities can live in harmony without living as syncretism. Wouldn't cultural mingling be a matter of history rather than (or as much as) UPG, though?

Quote from: Rhyshadow;65661

I'm personally of the opinion that when one's own pantheon can't give the exact help you need, they'll look outside. Myself, I count Brighid and Oghma as my Patrons - but standing at my shoulder is Var (Norse goddess of Oaths) because of something I need to do that I'm still working on. Since Loki IS a god of change and adaption, sounds like he was the right one at that time. Does it mean you have to work with him from now on? Of course not. But you can call him if needed, or not if he's not someone you want to associate with - I know there are those who look on him with disdain, all I can tell you is that the Lokeans (Loki followers) I know are friendly, helpful and quite accepting of other paths.

Oh, no! It's not disdain, don't get me wrong. It's just that I expect that He'd expect me to be a lot smarter than I am-- or smart in ways that I'm just not.

herkles · « **Reply #6 on:** July 23, 2012, 09:43:51 pm »

Quote from: triple_entendre;65593

So. What do you make of this, Cauldronites? Hard polytheists? Soft polytheists?

I mentioned this before but one thing that I have found regarding non-Abrahamic faiths is the lack of exclusivity. Meaning, one does not have to be just a Norse follower or just a Celtic Follower. Looking at the ancient world, that did not seem to be the case as in the roman empire, the Gaulish deity Epona was popular as was the egyptian deity Isis.

Another example is looking at the Asian religions such as Buddhism, Taoism, Chinese folk and so forth. from what I know of those religions. people follow all of them or parts of them that make sense to them.

While I generally stick to the Celtic pantheon and faith, if there is something outside of it or a deity that I feel closer to that lies outside of my main pantheon, I see not a single issue in honoring it.

Sharysa · « **Reply #7 on:** July 24, 2012, 12:38:59 am »

Quote from: triple_entendre;65593

So. What do you make of this, Cauldronites? Hard polytheists? Soft polytheists?

To the first part: I don't think "has no purpose there" would be able to stop Loki, considering he's one of the most notorious tricksters in any body of mythology.

Second: As people have mentioned, exclusivity is a trait of Abrahamic faiths. Pagan faiths both acknowledge other pantheons' existence and the possibility that they might someday contact you for some reason.

Aengus agreeing with Loki doesn't seem out of character. Once more, the idea that gods can/will help you with anything is a trait of the Abrahamic faiths, especially Christianity. If your fixation on the guy has nothing unusual to it--as it sounds from the first/real Aengus' immediate "Sorry, I can't help you with that"--then there's really nothing they can do about it.

And since Loki told you to figure it out yourself, it does sound like the problem's tangled up in your own psyche. The gods can support you with it (talking things out, helping you find a support system, making sure you stay sane while you figure things out) but they're not going to wave a magic wand and instantly make you better.

In fact, from what I've experienced with the Irish gods myself, I don't think they can do that--at least not on a psychological front.

The only "instant" things that have ever happened to me were when Brighid got rid of a headache and Aengus dispelled some sort of PTSD/traumatic episode. And with the second one, it was only the physical symptoms.

When I kept asking them for help on the mental or emotional side, I kept getting, "Sorry, we (literally) can't do that."

wadjet · « **Reply #8 on:** July 24, 2012, 12:43:27 am »

Quote from: herkles;65744

I mentioned this before but one thing that I have found regarding non-Abrahamic faiths is the lack of exclusivity. Meaning, one does not have to be just a Norse follower or just a Celtic Follower.

I've heard accounts of extremely frustrated Christian missionaries sent to various Northern European Pagans, who explained to them why they should worship Jesus, and the Pagans said, "Oh, Jesus, yeah, he sounds like a good guy, seems reasonable... I'll set him right here on my altar next to Thor."

I'm under the impression the Nordic gods can give a little helpful "boost" or some personal insight, but generally don't do much else. Not that they can't, but that they expect you do do your own work.

As for "why Loki", one could extend the question farther from triple_entendre's experience and ask...why has Loki been so active lately? I've been considering starting a thread on that....

On a more personal note, triple_entendre, how are you dealing with the human part of the situation emotionally? Are you seeing a councilor or someone who can help you? Are you doing what you can to make the situation as healthy as you can? Is there anything we can do to help you there?

Nyktipolos · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2012, 12:44:29 am »

Quote from: triple_entendre;65739

That's interesting! So it seems deities can live in harmony without living as syncretism. Wouldn't cultural mingling be a matter of history rather than (or as much as) UPG, though?

I say UPG as a matter of covering my own ass, as I am not entirely well versed on the historic side of things when it comes to Anglo-Saxon heathenry. I'm still getting my feet wet, as it were.

But to my common sense, it would be obvious that the Norse Gods and the Celtic Gods (along with the indigenous Gods of Britain, and since there's some Roman conquering going on there at some point lets throw them in there too) would interact at some point, considering several of them had probably staked claims here and there and all of a sudden These People bring Their Gods and the shrines and festival halls just got a helluva lot busier.

But like I said, I'm claiming UPG to cover my ass. I can't back this up atm with written word, whether by other heathens/pagans, or scholars who have researched this. It just seems to me as common sense.

Faemon · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2012, 01:40:16 am »

Thanks, everyone for the input! It isn't so much that I feel I should isolate myself to just one pantheon-- I mean, I have pretty heavy Hellenistic leanings, too-- but it's just, as mentioned, I pursued Heathenry before and got a lot of silence. So it's more like, "Why you why now why?" But I guess that's something I should have thought of asking Loki when he was actually there. If he pops up again, I should ask him. Maybe he was just trolling, and my bafflement amused him.

Quote from: wadjet;65754

why has Loki been so active lately? I've been considering starting a thread on that....

Do!

Quote

On a more personal note, triple_entendre, how are you dealing with the human part of the situation emotionally? Are you seeing a councilor or someone who can help you? Are you doing what you can to make the situation as healthy as you can? Is there anything we can do to help you there?

Aww, thanks.

But really, I would just be so happy if I just had anyone else's brain but my own. I've cut ties more or less completely with both the alcoholic family member and the what-was-I-thinking crush, found real friends and real family, have been working jobs that I enjoy that give me time to pursue other things that I enjoy, have gone through therapy a long time ago and took quite a few coping and processing skills from that... it's just my horrible habit of dwelling, I guess. And, I mean, I don't want to just repress it, but I see no other way of getting it to go away by myself? If it were me giving the advice, it might be, "Just stay with it for as long as it comes to you" but to have that actually happen, I'm like, "Out. Get out, thoughts. Now." So.

wadjet · « **Reply #11 on:** July 24, 2012, 02:08:38 am »

Quote from: triple_entendre;65758

Maybe he was just trolling, and my bafflement amused him.

Loki, God of Trolls. Figures.

Quote

Do!

That threat is right here, for anyone interested!

Quote

it's just my horrible habit of dwelling, I guess. And, I mean, I don't want to just repress it, but I see no other way of getting it to go away by myself? If it were me giving the advice, it might be, "Just stay with it for as long as it comes to you" but to have that actually happen, I'm like, "Out. Get out, thoughts. Now." So.

I'm bad with ruminating on things, too. One thing I try to do it "train" my brain so that every time the thinking starts, I go do something constructive, especially something that's helpful to someone else. Not only does it distract me but it raises my self-worth, so you get positive reinforcement...eventually your brain will automatically do it instead of thinking about bad crap. (I feel pretentious giving suggestions like this...?)

SkySamuelle · « **Reply #12 on:** July 24, 2012, 02:24:58 am »

Quote from: triple_entendre;65758

Thanks, everyone for the input! It isn't so much that I feel I should isolate myself to just one pantheon-- I mean, I have pretty heavy Hellenistic leanings, too-- but it's just, as mentioned, I pursued Heathenry before and got a lot of silence. So it's more like, "Why you why now why?" But I guess that's something I should have thought of asking Loki when he was actually there. If he pops up again, I should ask him. Maybe he was just trolling, and my bafflement amused him. .

I can understand that. When I started, I was all about the Celtic pantheon and receved like ... nothing. Then I got happily settled with a few of my Greek gods, got startled out of my mind when Vodoun spirits came on the scene and then again when The Morrigan decided to defy my belief that I had no affinity witg Celtic gods by joinging the merry band .

I suppose deities must follow our rules only if they are the truly the fruit of our expectations

But then I am an hard polytheist so for me, part of their being individuals also means they come and leave into human lives as they choose/feel appropriate.

I would give Loki a chance. Regardless of his reputation, lokeans tend to advocate that he has a very affectionate/loyal/playful side as well (altough this is not a denial of his more destructive traits, he is still the 'breaker of worlds').

There's two lokeans blogs I know if you want get a feel of him before deciding:
http://bribroken.wordpress.com/
http://lokisbruid.wordpress.com/

Quote from: triple_entendre;65758

Aww, thanks. But really, I would just be so happy if I just had anyone else's brain but my own. I've cut ties more or less completely with both the alcoholic family member and the what-was-I-thinking crush, found real friends and real family, have been working jobs that I enjoy that give me time to pursue other things that I enjoy, have gone through therapy a long time ago and took quite a few coping and processing skills from that... it's just my horrible habit of dwelling, I guess. And, I mean, I don't want to just repress it, but I see no other way of getting it to go away by myself? If it were me giving the advice, it might be, "Just stay with it for as long as it comes to you" but to have that actually happen, I'm like, "Out. Get out, thoughts. Now." So.

It sounds like there's a part of the 'trauma' you have resolved yet so it keeps coming back until you do . It may be useful to analyze why you panic as soon the thoughts come. Maybe there's a part of those memories you have not completely understood yet or maybe you have not allowed yourself to fully 'mourn' the injustice of the situation back to then.
Just fodder for thought.

Rhyshadow · « **Reply #13 on:** July 24, 2012, 05:09:24 am »

Quote from: SkySamuelle;65762

There's two lokeans blogs I know if you want get a feel of him before deciding:
http://bribroken.wordpress.com/
http://lokisbruid.wordpress.com/

A couple other blogs

http://templeoftheflea.weebly.com/
http://krasskova.weebly.com/index.html - This one is by Galina Krasskova who has written a couple books on the subject as well

Juniperberry · « **Reply #14 on:** July 24, 2012, 05:56:47 am »

Quote from: Nyktipolos;65755

I say UPG as a matter of covering my own ass, as I am not entirely well versed on the historic side of things when it comes to Anglo-Saxon heathenry. I'm still getting my feet wet, as it were. But to my common sense, it would be obvious that the Norse Gods and the Celtic Gods (along with the indigenous Gods of Britain, and since there's some Roman conquering going on there at some point lets throw them in there too) would interact at some point, considering several of them had probably staked claims here and there and all of a sudden These People bring Their Gods and the shrines and festival halls just got a helluva lot busier.

But like I said, I'm claiming UPG to cover my ass. I can't back this up atm with written word, whether by other heathens/pagans, or scholars who have researched this. It just seems to me as common sense.

There was intermingling on the Continent between the Germanic and Celtic. The Boii lived alongside the Germanic tribes and votive stones with celto-germanic names are evidence of mixed beliefs. So, there's that.

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Author Topic: UPG: Celtic/Norse crossover (Read 2641 times)

Faemon

UPG: Celtic/Norse crossover

SkySamuelle

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Faemon

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Nyktipolos

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Rhyshadow

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Faemon

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herkles

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Sharysa

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wadjet

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Nyktipolos

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Faemon

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wadjet

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SkySamuelle

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