Author Topic: Gender Roles (Read 6492 times)

DancesWithHorses · « **on:** July 16, 2012, 11:19:26 am »

Couldn't really think of a good title.... Anyway, do you feel religion influences gender roles? Or is it just tradition? If this is in the wrong section, please relocate it.

I keep running into conflicts around gender roles. My family owns a fair-sized farm and I would like nothing more than to one day buy into the farm (saving all my money to buy shares). I planned most of my life around that farm. But I keep getting told a woman can't run a farm herself, that I must marry to farm. I should make it clear, I do not have any brothers and both my sisters can't get away from the farm fast enough.
The main argument is that I am not physically strong or skilled enough for some of the harder work. The whole argument reappeared recently when I tore up my shoulder. It's now more than likely permanently damaged. It doesn't stop me. I can do the work especially now that technology has made certain chores easier.
Why do such views still prevail today? Are they influenced by religion (Christianity in my area)? I feel like a cow being sized up at market if I go to a local event and word gets out I'm single again. Don't care to recall the number of proposed arranged marriages I've heard. It's like those boys only see the land I might come with (there's no guarantee, not in life anyway). Add in perssure from the older women (Still single?! Honey, you can't farm without a man! Women belong in the kitchen not in the barn, etc) and half of the time I think we're living somewhere in the 1940s, not 2012!

Sharysa · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2012, 01:32:42 pm »

Quote from: DancesWithHorses;64376

Couldn't really think of a good title.... Anyway, do you feel religion influences gender roles? Or is it just tradition? If this is in the wrong section, please relocate it.

Religion and tradition tend to be intertwined heavily, especially in rural areas. Change moves more slowly among more religious communities because religion tends to be taught from childhood. It also moves slowly in the rural communities, because information just doesn't travel very quickly.

My mother's hometown wasn't rural by the time I visited, at least in terms of infrastructure and population, but all the blackouts and minor earthquakes meant that TVs and radio weren't very reliable for obvious reasons.

There's also the general human tendency to be suspicious about change, especially regarding gender roles--that sort of thing shakes up a community for very legitimate reasons. Not everyone is going to see gender equality as a good thing, even women. When you spend your life being told that men can do this and women can't (or vice versa), and then someone else says, "no, we are physically able to do the same things," they're going to resist because on a practical level, they really can't.

They don't have the skills to do those things, what with having spent most of their lives leaving it to the other gender.

Of course they could learn, but it would be a much slower process than someone who was raised with the concept of gender equality because not only would they need to learn new skills, they'd have to unlearn the decades of social conditioning they went through. And, well, what's easier--learning to do something from scratch, or calling up someone who already knows how?

A couple years ago, the tree in our patio was starting to block light from our windows. The main offending branch was only a bit higher than we could reach, but Mom immediately went, "I wish your brother/dad were here." I went, "What? All we need is a chair," and she went, "Are you sure?" in the "I never considered that option" way. She let me saw the branch off without much trouble, but she still insisted on watching me, physically holding the chair still, and demanding that I be careful whenever the chair wobbled slightly.

This was NOT a large branch (most of it was leaves and it was about three or four feet long), it was only seven or eight feet up, and the process of removing it took about ten minutes. My mother still considered it "men's work" because since we worked with a tree, dealing with it was automatically harder than working with smaller, more manageable plants.

DancesWithHorses · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2012, 03:31:53 pm »

Quote from: Sharysa;64392

Religion and tradition tend to be intertwined heavily, especially in rural areas. Change moves more slowly among more religious communities because religion tends to be taught from childhood. It also moves slowly in the rural communities, because information just doesn't travel very quickly.

There's also the general human tendency to be suspicious about change, especially regarding gender roles--that sort of thing shakes up a community for very legitimate reasons. Not everyone is going to see gender equality as a good thing, even women. When you spend your life being told that men can do this and women can't (or vice versa), and then someone else says, "no, we are physically able to do the same things," they're going to resist because on a practical level, they really can't.

They don't have the skills to do those things, what with having spent most of their lives leaving it to the other gender.

Of course they could learn, but it would be a much slower process than someone who was raised with the concept of gender equality because not only would they need to learn new skills, they'd have to unlearn the decades of social conditioning they went through. And, well, what's easier--learning to do something from scratch, or calling up someone who already knows how?

I see your point. I do recognize that on a practical level, a woman can not do some of the things men do without a second thought. I, for example, can not carry a 30kg bag of feed more than a few meters. I just can not. But that's what tractors and skids are for.

Interesting point about the mental self-imposed limitations as well as social conditioning. I guess what bothers me is that I'm expected to do everything a man can and then some. Let's say I get the farm, I run it by myself, might hire someone do meet time constraints but mostly by myself. And then say I decide to hire a housekeeper or a maid because I can't keep up in the house. How much do you want to bet there would be an outrage the next Sunday at the social? But if my friend decided he wanted to hire someone to cook for him, it's alright. Double standards, really. :p

As far as learning skills go, depends on the setting, if I have my father breathing fire down my neck, it will not go over well. But if I'm home alone, I might just grab a netbook, a tool box and tinker around.

mlr52 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2012, 03:56:47 pm »

Quote from: DancesWithHorses;64376

Couldn't really think of a good title.... Anyway, do you feel religion influences gender roles? Or is it just tradition?

Both have their influences, and they reinforce each other.

Quote

I keep running into conflicts around gender roles. My family owns a fair-sized farm and I would like nothing more than to one day buy into the farm (saving all my money to buy shares). I planned most of my life around that farm. But I keep getting told a woman can't run a farm herself, that I must marry to farm. I should make it clear, I do not have any brothers and both my sisters can't get away from the farm fast enough.

Check the written laws yourself. IMO this may go back to the idea that women cannot own land, or property.

Quote

I feel like a cow being sized up at market if I go to a local event and word gets out I'm single again. Don't care to recall the number of proposed arranged marriages I've heard. It's like those boys only see the land I might come with (there's no guarantee, not in life anyway).

Not to be flippiant but what do those boys bring to the get together (their good looks will fade with time)?

Maps · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2012, 04:09:53 pm »

Quote from: DancesWithHorses;64376

Couldn't really think of a good title.... Anyway, do you feel religion influences gender roles? Or is it just tradition? If this is in the wrong section, please relocate it.

I keep running into conflicts around gender roles. My family owns a fair-sized farm and I would like nothing more than to one day buy into the farm (saving all my money to buy shares). I planned most of my life around that farm. But I keep getting told a woman can't run a farm herself, that I must marry to farm. I should make it clear, I do not have any brothers and both my sisters can't get away from the farm fast enough.
The main argument is that I am not physically strong or skilled enough for some of the harder work. The whole argument reappeared recently when I tore up my shoulder. It's now more than likely permanently damaged. It doesn't stop me. I can do the work especially now that technology has made certain chores easier.
Why do such views still prevail today? Are they influenced by religion (Christianity in my area)? I feel like a cow being sized up at market if I go to a local event and word gets out I'm single again. Don't care to recall the number of proposed arranged marriages I've heard. It's like those boys only see the land I might come with (there's no guarantee, not in life anyway). Add in perssure from the older women (Still single?! Honey, you can't farm without a man! Women belong in the kitchen not in the barn, etc) and half of the time I think we're living somewhere in the 1940s, not 2012!

You might be interested in a little something called feminism...

But in all seriousness, it has to do with property and maintaining the means to production. For most of human history that meant labor, and labor meant offspring and/or slaves. Guess what the only source is for both of those things? Women with functioning reproductive systems. So what do you do? You teach that women are inferior to men in every way, you legally turn them into chattel, and you claim that this is the divine order of things, and that going against this order is a sin. Voila, instant patriarchy*.

So while women aren't slaves in the west anymore, and they can vote, and almost make equal pay for equal work and all that jazz, it's the philosophies and social narratives that were originally installed to help uphold this patriarchal structure and allow it to be self-correcting that is going to take a very long time to dismantle, that is if it's not impossible at all. Those things are comforting "feel-good"s to a ton of people, because it prescribes a roles that folks can aspire to and "win" at. Taking away their fear and othering (that self-correcting mechanism that ensures gender dissidents are few and far between) is like pulling teeth, even though it's good for them.

*Patriarchy doesn't actually mean "all men everywhere"-- it means cis, hetero, able-bodied men in positions of power (landowners), basically. And in today's world, it also means white.

DancesWithHorses · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2012, 04:41:12 pm »

Quote from: mlr52;64410

Not to be flippiant but what do those boys bring to the get together (their good looks will fade with time)?

It could go back to the landownership.

What good looks? :p Sorry, that was the first thing I thought, I really don't notice physical looks, I care more about the person underneath.

As for the guys, there's two varieties walking around here, the ones that would love nothing more than a chance at a farm and they would marry for it instead of earning it. Then there are the ones that want to farm but learn mechanics, construction, etc instead. So they bring skills. Which yes, if you listened to my father. Around here we call those wanting just the land "quota hunters." I do have one advantage to be labelled "comes with land", the guys that have farms are willing to be friends with me as I see them for who they are, not what they own/inherit. It normally doesn't bother me, its great entertainment but several of my friends just got engaged/married and between their matchmaking schemes and my parents and their friends, I can't run fast enough. Even the milk processor cracked some jokes at my expense this morning and then ended with "my son is single again."

Quote from: Maps;64417

You might be interested in a little something called feminism...

But in all seriousness, it has to do with property and maintaining the means to production. For most of human history that meant labor, and labor meant offspring and/or slaves. Guess what the only source is for both of those things? Women with functioning reproductive systems. So what do you do? You teach that women are inferior to men in every way, you legally turn them into chattel, and you claim that this is the divine order of things, and that going against this order is a sin. Voila, instant patriarchy*.

So while women aren't slaves in the west anymore, and they can vote, and almost make equal pay for equal work and all that jazz, it's the philosophies and social narratives that were originally installed to help uphold this patriarchal structure and allow it to be self-correcting that is going to take a very long time to dismantle, that is if it's not impossible at all. Those things are comforting "feel-good"s to a ton of people, because it prescribes a roles that folks can aspire to and "win" at. Taking away their fear and othering (that self-correcting mechanism that ensures gender dissidents are few and far between) is like pulling teeth, even though it's good for them.

*Patriarchy doesn't actually mean "all men everywhere"-- it means cis, hetero, able-bodied men in positions of power (landowners), basically. And in today's world, it also means white.

Interesting take. I actually haven't thought of that one (keep women inferior because they are actually needed). Makes sense though. In livestock, the female is always worth more as a means of production. But until cattle, humans can protest and have a mind of their own... so you would need to get more creative.

I don't think we'll ever completely get away from a patriarchal society. Feminism in my generation is a "dirty" word. Not joking, CBC did a docmentary on it.

This is an interesting discussion, thanks to everyone who has replied so far.

Aster Breo · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2012, 04:47:40 pm »

Quote from: DancesWithHorses;64405

Let's say I get the farm, I run it by myself, might hire someone do meet time constraints but mostly by myself. And then say I decide to hire a housekeeper or a maid because I can't keep up in the house. How much do you want to bet there would be an outrage the next Sunday at the social? But if my friend decided he wanted to hire someone to cook for him, it's alright. Double standards, really. :p

So, be an example. It sounds like that's what your community needs: someone to show them that women can do anything men can (other than impregnate another women with one's own sperm, I mean).

Who cares about the "outrage"? Let them talk. Maybe they'll actually learn something.

And I'd bet the farm, so to speak

, that there are other women there who would follow your example.

When I first started out in technical theater, back in the very early 80s, it was a male dominated profession. Mostly. There were plenty of female costumers and make-up artists and a good number of female stage managers, but not so much in the area I was most interested in -- electrics and lighting design. It can be physically challenging work, and, depending on the specific task, that can be harder for a woman -- particularly things like carrying heavy equipment or reaching things hung up high. But, as you say, that's what technology is for.

I didn't let the guys scare me off and neither did the other women working in that same field. Things are better now. Not completely equal. There are still more male technicians than female. But we're not oddities anymore. My 22-year-old daughter now works in the same field, and has experienced none of the gender-related annoyances I did.

I had a similar experience when I changed careers and moved into lobbying and advocacy. While lobbying is still dominated by men, women are no longer discounted. In the specific issue area I focused on, in fact, they're are now far more women leading advocacy organizations at the local, state, and national level than men.

This kind of change takes time, but it dues happen. Gender roles are not set in stone.

Plus, you can always point back to the earliest agricultural societies, in which the women did all the farming while the men hunted.

~ Aster

DancesWithHorses · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:14:05 pm »

Quote from: Aster Breo;64426

So, be an example. It sounds like that's what your community needs: someone to show them that women can do anything men can (other than impregnate another women with one's own sperm, I mean).

Who cares about the "outrage"? Let them talk. Maybe they'll actually learn something.

If I was 100% myself, yes, I would not care, I'd do it just to watch the fireworks. But the main question, why must there be outrage at all?

Quote

I had a similar experience when I changed careers and moved into lobbying and advocacy. While lobbying is still dominated by men, women are no longer discounted. In the specific issue area I focused on, in fact, they're are now far more women leading advocacy organizations at the local, state, and national level than men.

This kind of change takes time, but it dues happen. Gender roles are not set in stone.

Plus, you can always point back to the earliest agricultural societies, in which the women did all the farming while the men hunted.

~ Aster

There is hope, I was reading an article recently for work and the number of sole female farm operators has grown more than males in the last 5 years. It's mostly this town. There were more people getting married and pregnant/had a child already in my graduating class than people going to post-secondary education. 13 people went to college or university. 15 got married or had a child. Out of 300 something students.

I still remember the one busybody who took it upon herself to call my mother after she saw that my car was parked at my then-boyfriend's all night. Four weeks later she had something else to worry about... her oldest daughter came home pregnant and didn't know who the father was. As said, if I wasn't ill, I'd have so much fun with this whole situation. Because I know I could do it.

I have gotten ahead somewhat, I graduated a year early despite working full time and I've paid most of my school with grade-based scholarships.

Good for you though! Always nice to hear of someone that got what they set out to do.

Wickerman · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2012, 08:43:12 pm »

Quote from: DancesWithHorses;64376

Couldn't really think of a good title.... Anyway, do you feel religion influences gender roles? Or is it just tradition? If this is in the wrong section, please relocate it.

I keep running into conflicts around gender roles. My family owns a fair-sized farm and I would like nothing more than to one day buy into the farm (saving all my money to buy shares). I planned most of my life around that farm. But I keep getting told a woman can't run a farm herself, that I must marry to farm. I should make it clear, I do not have any brothers and both my sisters can't get away from the farm fast enough.
The main argument is that I am not physically strong or skilled enough for some of the harder work. The whole argument reappeared recently when I tore up my shoulder. It's now more than likely permanently damaged. It doesn't stop me. I can do the work especially now that technology has made certain chores easier.
Why do such views still prevail today? Are they influenced by religion (Christianity in my area)? I feel like a cow being sized up at market if I go to a local event and word gets out I'm single again. Don't care to recall the number of proposed arranged marriages I've heard. It's like those boys only see the land I might come with (there's no guarantee, not in life anyway). Add in perssure from the older women (Still single?! Honey, you can't farm without a man! Women belong in the kitchen not in the barn, etc) and half of the time I think we're living somewhere in the 1940s, not 2012!

The question that I have is are you sure? Sometimes farm life just plan sucks.

As for being a woman, well, I can't see that making that much of a difference. Being single on the other hand will be an impediment. I don't know what I would do without a wife, and kids. It isn't about physical strength, sometimes it's just about not having enough hands, or not being able to be in two places at once. Especially when moving livestock. A good dog helps, but sometimes you just need someone to open a gate at the right time. It's something to think about.

monsnoleedra · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2012, 09:20:46 pm »

Quote from: Wickerman;64470

The question that I have is are you sure? Sometimes farm life just plan sucks.

As for being a woman, well, I can't see that making that much of a difference. Being single on the other hand will be an impediment. I don't know what I would do without a wife, and kids. It isn't about physical strength, sometimes it's just about not having enough hands, or not being able to be in two places at once. Especially when moving livestock. A good dog helps, but sometimes you just need someone to open a gate at the right time. It's something to think about.

I know the way I was raised its not that a woman could not do as well as a man but that a woman could not be head of the home and raise the children and be head of the farm and dedicate the time needed to that. My nephew is foreman for a large farm in our area and spends sun up to sun down many days and has no time for anything else because of it. When not at the farm he is always on call 24-7.

His farm is not even a crop producing one but involves livestock mostly. A crop producing farm takes even more time and consideration when one considers you have to do well enough in the growing season to make it to the fallow season,

Yei · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2012, 11:13:58 pm »

Quote from: Wickerman;64470

The question that I have is are you sure? Sometimes farm life just plan sucks.

As for being a woman, well, I can't see that making that much of a difference. Being single on the other hand will be an impediment. I don't know what I would do without a wife, and kids. It isn't about physical strength, sometimes it's just about not having enough hands, or not being able to be in two places at once. Especially when moving livestock. A good dog helps, but sometimes you just need someone to open a gate at the right time. It's something to think about.

I'd like to put in my two cents here. It's generally a good idea to partner up. Not in the romantic sense, more in the hare the load sense. Farm work is hard, and helping hands are always useful, not to mention having someone of similar authority in case you need to be somewhere else, or in a crisis like you are injured or something. As for the marriage, I agree that this is annoying. However, most people do end up married anyway.

As for this in religion, it's difficult to tell. Most here religions are old, and the day to day lives are not clear. However women were almost certainly involved in farming, as necessity would require it. Among some North American groups women were the majority farmers. Even if men were the primary farmer, women would still be involved in labour, especially at harvest time. I would say that early-modern notions of women and farm work lie more in Victorian sense of 'properness' than in ancient religion.

DancesWithHorses · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2012, 07:25:50 am »

Quote from: Rob;64502

I'd like to put in my two cents here. It's generally a good idea to partner up. Not in the romantic sense, more in the hare the load sense. Farm work is hard, and helping hands are always useful, not to mention having someone of similar authority in case you need to be somewhere else, or in a crisis like you are injured or something. As for the marriage, I agree that this is annoying. However, most people do end up married anyway.

As for this in religion, it's difficult to tell. Most here religions are old, and the day to day lives are not clear. However women were almost certainly involved in farming, as necessity would require it. Among some North American groups women were the majority farmers. Even if men were the primary farmer, women would still be involved in labour, especially at harvest time. I would say that early-modern notions of women and farm work lie more in Victorian sense of 'properness' than in ancient religion.

I did want to say, I recognize that running a farm alone is very difficult but I'd like to have a choice in the end, find someone on my own time.

As for, am I sure I want this? Yes. I have a 9-to-5 right now, great pay if you consider that it's outside of my field (and I have zero training) and in a tough market with a poor economy. I'm an ag news reporter (summer intern but I write well over half of the articles being published at the moment). All things considered, I should like this job, I like to write, I get to talk to farmers, I have a good income... but I don't. I'm miserable. I live for those 4 hours a day that I work in the barns. That's where I am happy. Sure, there's bad days but tons of good days.

We're mostly livestock, farrow-to-finish with 190-head dairy goat herd. Plus a couple hundred acres cash crop (mostly done by custom workers). It's just the family, no hired help.

It could be a Victorian-era notion, would make sense, society is still quite attached to that time period.

Maps · « **Reply #12 on:** July 17, 2012, 12:54:58 pm »

Quote from: DancesWithHorses;64546

I did want to say, I recognize that running a farm alone is very difficult but I'd like to have a choice in the end, find someone on my own time.

As for, am I sure I want this? Yes. I have a 9-to-5 right now, great pay if you consider that it's outside of my field (and I have zero training) and in a tough market with a poor economy. I'm an ag news reporter (summer intern but I write well over half of the articles being published at the moment). All things considered, I should like this job, I like to write, I get to talk to farmers, I have a good income... but I don't. I'm miserable. I live for those 4 hours a day that I work in the barns. That's where I am happy. Sure, there's bad days but tons of good days.

We're mostly livestock, farrow-to-finish with 190-head dairy goat herd. Plus a couple hundred acres cash crop (mostly done by custom workers). It's just the family, no hired help.

It could be a Victorian-era notion, would make sense, society is still quite attached to that time period.

Yeah, people just get uppity when their idea of status-quo is being challenged... even in the smallest, dumbest ways. Your instance is anything but, though. Definitely take this opportunity to show 'em how wrong they are. :]

monsnoleedra · « **Reply #13 on:** July 17, 2012, 02:00:41 pm »

Quote from: DancesWithHorses;64546

I did want to say, I recognize that running a farm alone is very difficult but I'd like to have a choice in the end, find someone on my own time.

As for, am I sure I want this? Yes. I have a 9-to-5 right now, great pay if you consider that it's outside of my field (and I have zero training) and in a tough market with a poor economy. I'm an ag news reporter (summer intern but I write well over half of the articles being published at the moment). All things considered, I should like this job, I like to write, I get to talk to farmers, I have a good income... but I don't. I'm miserable. I live for those 4 hours a day that I work in the barns. That's where I am happy. Sure, there's bad days but tons of good days.

We're mostly livestock, farrow-to-finish with 190-head dairy goat herd. Plus a couple hundred acres cash crop (mostly done by custom workers). It's just the family, no hired help.

It could be a Victorian-era notion, would make sense, society is still quite attached to that time period.

Just for clarrification you speak of a perminante injury now yet what was the cause of the injury if you don't mind? For instance if you hurt your shoulder tossing hay / straw then that speaks of physical labor that, especially if one is speaking of square bales versus the giant rolled bales for instance. If it was due to working and cleaning the barns I imagine a 190 head heard makes quite a bit of waste.

I know my brother-in-law spends a couple of hours a day cleaning stalls and such for his horses. Then some more time to water, feed, brush down and the other assortment of things he does on a daily basis and he only has 6 horses. Years ago it was him, his wife and thier two daughters, today pretty much just him and my sister.

As I stated my nephew as foreman on the farm he works on is sun up to sun down and the tasks are never done. That also including all the on the road time as he has to go to various places to collect things needed to run the farm or maintain it. While not frequent it has included trips across the country to get things or make purchases of livestock and transport them.

The more I read this the more it seems as if it is being implied that "You" can not run the farm not that a woman can not run the farm. Especially when you mention that you have two sisters that can't wait to get away from it which sort of implies they are doing a lot on it now.

You've also not told us why they say a woman can't run it but implied it is because your a woman. If your only spending 4 hours occasionally in the barn and hurt yourself then it seems to be more of a physical size and strength issue than simply being a woman. Especially when you appear to be basing your ability to do so on the many modern improvements that are worthless at times and manual labor still has to be used.

DancesWithHorses · « **Reply #14 on:** July 17, 2012, 06:22:14 pm »

Quote from: Maps;64601

Yeah, people just get uppity when their idea of status-quo is being challenged... even in the smallest, dumbest ways. Your instance is anything but, though. Definitely take this opportunity to show 'em how wrong they are. :]

Thanks, I will. I will get there one way or another.

Quote from: monsnoleedra;64614

Just for clarrification you speak of a perminante injury now yet what was the cause of the injury if you don't mind?

You've also not told us why they say a woman can't run it but implied it is because your a woman. If your only spending 4 hours occasionally in the barn and hurt yourself then it seems to be more of a physical size and strength issue than simply being a woman. Especially when you appear to be basing your ability to do so on the many modern improvements that are worthless at times and manual labor still has to be used.

I tore it when I grabbed a goat and she swung behind me. I'm still waiting on the final verdict from the doctor. I can still work though, just had to make some adjustments.

Only 4 hours?

It adds up... I milk most mornings and nights. I still do at least 20 hours a week on top of the 35 hours a week in the office. I ran the farm over Christmas, I'm not walking in this blind, I grew up in this life.

Yes, a lot of it is based on me personally. But I'm not the only one getting this. My friend just watched her father sell the dairy farm even though she slaved day and night to prove to him she could run it. Another friend had the same thing happen with their veal farm. The main reason is physical but it is possible, I've done all the work before, for months. Most of it is technique. Brute strength is only helpful sometimes. Plus, why shouldn't I if there is modern technology to help me? We do large squares, most of it is run by tractor. I'll be done my degree in ag business in a few semesters. The only other reason I've heard is that I can't have a family at the same time (true being pregnant and working around livestock is dangerous) but that also implies that I did find someone to settle down with.

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