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Author Topic: Sacrifice.  (Read 9264 times)

SatSekhem

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Sacrifice.
« on: July 12, 2011, 08:08:36 pm »
I was just wondering what the general opinion of animal sacrifice is...?

My personal opinion is, quite frankly, I love animals and I just don't think I could go through with it. I also don't think I could sit quietly by during a ritual while a priestess/shaman/Sorcerer Supreme cut the throat of a dove or a goat.
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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2011, 08:28:58 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;4369
I was just wondering what the general opinion of animal sacrifice is...?

My personal opinion is, quite frankly, I love animals and I just don't think I could go through with it. I also don't think I could sit quietly by during a ritual while a priestess/shaman/Sorcerer Supreme cut the throat of a dove or a goat.


I think it depends who is doing it, why they are doing and what they do wiht the animal afterwards. I mean it would really give me the creeps is some vaguely hellenic teenagers (for example) decided to practice animal sacrifice using their neighbours pet goat, wheras is a culture that has consistently been practicing animal sacrifice for the last however many years seems reasonable enough.

I guess it comes down to is there a good enough reason for the sacrifice. In my opinion genuine cultural reasons are good enough or humanely killing and eating a sacrifice by someone with the skills to do is good enough but joe blow killing animals in his back yard and claiming it is as a religious tradition makes me cringe.

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2011, 08:33:35 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;4369
I was just wondering what the general opinion of animal sacrifice is...?

My personal opinion is, quite frankly, I love animals and I just don't think I could go through with it. I also don't think I could sit quietly by during a ritual while a priestess/shaman/Sorcerer Supreme cut the throat of a dove or a goat.


I love animals, too, but I'm also not vegan--I don't know your position on that and it changes the equation--and honestly feel that a properly sacrificed animal would have a much kinder, more honored and meaningful death in a sacrificial ritual than in a slaughterhouse.  Coming from the premise that animals are already being killed for my sustenance, I think I'd be more comfortable with it happening in front of me in a prayerful, thoughtful situation where I could look them in the eye, you know?
I know a lot of us are squeamish about death and blood and life ending to make more life, and at least in the US are obsessive about never looking at it.  I certainly don't approve of wasteful sacrifice, or "sacrifice" that's for no reason or cruel or whatever, but a death's a death, and especially if, for instance as in many sacrificial cultures, the animal is still used for food, it's no different than doing it on a farm.
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Juniperberry

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2011, 08:40:47 pm »
I think sacrifice is weird to us now because we're so far removed from the process of animal husbandry and butchering.

Animals were a food source first and foremost. Wives wrung chicken necks, men slaughtered pigs, children were involved with the process; it was just a way of life. You didn't go to McDonalds and get a beef patty mold.

Animal sacrifices were a gift because you spent time and resources on raising and feeding and sheltering an animal that you weren't going to partake of, but the gods were. There was the aspect of life giving, but ...I think because it's so foreign to us that it has dark undertones. Really, it wasn't until the Victorian era when we moved into being a more urban society that we even developed the ideas of housepets. And now its hard to shake that perception.

In a modern world, going out and buying a rabbit so that you can shed its blood for the gods TOTALLY misses the point of sacrifice. That's just killing something. Being a cattle rancher and raising a calf and giving that particular bull back in payment for your own gifts of nourishment and wealth is completely different.

There was a real belief that they NEEDED to give back to receive, that they were bound to honor the gods by putting some effort in. You don't need to kill a rabbit now to continue enjoying McDonalds and you haven't worked hard at securing the rabbit and raising it for it to have any meaning behind a pet shop buy.

My husband's grandmother lives in Frankfurt and rents one of those garden spaces where she raises ducks and other animals and she kills then and cooks with them. I don't see anything wrong in that or in her sharing some with her gods if she wanted to. Now, if she went to the store, bought an animal, went into a candle lit room and spilled its blood I would be concerned.

These images of dark, candle lit rooms and chanting-IMO- are entirely manufactured. Sacrifices happened at feast with singing and whatnot so there was ceremony and it was primitive, but the sort of pseudo-satanic symbolism now? I think that's inaccurate. (Though, really I'm only familiar with Germanic history so there is that, too.) Basically, I don't think it was all dark and blood and heavy , but a natural part of life and still can be in the proper context.  



Quote from: SatSekhem;4369
I was just wondering what the general opinion of animal sacrifice is...?

My personal opinion is, quite frankly, I love animals and I just don't think I could go through with it. I also don't think I could sit quietly by during a ritual while a priestess/shaman/Sorcerer Supreme cut the throat of a dove or a goat.
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

Asch

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2011, 09:09:33 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;4369
I was just wondering what the general opinion of animal sacrifice is...?

My personal opinion is, quite frankly, I love animals and I just don't think I could go through with it. I also don't think I could sit quietly by during a ritual while a priestess/shaman/Sorcerer Supreme cut the throat of a dove or a goat.


I agree with Juniperberry on this one. Modern animal sacrifice is a tricky issue but when you look at the cultures and religions that generally participate in it they're largely those that still raise food animals at home so it's a different relationship.

When I was a kid we raised poultry and occasionally slaughtered them for food so my perspective is colored by that as well. But, basically, it's a question of reciprocity and hospitality. If your deity/ies watch over you and your animals and produce prosperity then it is natural to offer a portion of that bounty in thanks. Remember that until the last 100 years or so meat was a luxury item usually only readily available for consumption during seasons of slaughter before winter. Considering that it makes even more sense that such a valuable and necessary life giving object would be offered to deity/ies in acknowledgement, thanks, and veneration for the continued gift of success and life.

All that said, as has been stated, the sacredness of slaughtering a pet shop animal for say a Druid rite (not that I think that happens just using it as an example) would, imo, be wrong not just because an animal was pointlessly killed but because the person/s offering the sacrifice weren't really giving up much or sharing much, particularly if the carcass wasn't consumed.

IMO it would be far more appropriate to sacrifice personal time (considering the busy schedules many modern peoples are subject to) to volunteering for a cause likely to be within the deity/ies purview or something similar because in that case the person offering would be giving up something of value to themselves.

If that makes sense.

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2011, 10:08:21 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;4369
I was just wondering what the general opinion of animal sacrifice is...?

My personal opinion is, quite frankly, I love animals and I just don't think I could go through with it. I also don't think I could sit quietly by during a ritual while a priestess/shaman/Sorcerer Supreme cut the throat of a dove or a goat.

 
I think it depends a lot on the context of the ritual.

One really important thing about many cultures that used animal sacrifice as a regular part of religious practice is that the food was used with a very deliberate intention. In some places, that was a community meal - in other places (for example, it's true in Haiti even today), initiatory and other feasts are sometimes the only time people in poor villages get meat in their diet, or much variation in their food.

Personally, I do eat meat on a regular basis (though I try hard to eat meat from local producers who treat their animals well whenever I can). If I'm going to do that, complaining about an equivalent use of an animal in ritual (animal has been treated reasonably well, is killed quickly and as painlessly as possible, and then is used for food) seems rather willfully ignorant of the realities of food choices, which I try not to be. After all, in that latter case, it's all the same stuff I look for in food I eat, with an additional ritual piece that adds meaning to the experience, rather than subtracting.

I can certainly think of cases where I wouldn't be comfortable with it (and definitely believe it shouldn't be sprung on people). But I can also see a number of cases where - while it's not a part of my religious practice, or even widely common in its antecedents - where it might be appropriate and reasonable, and I'd be fine participating.
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Adder

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2011, 10:45:56 pm »
Quote from: SatSekhem;4369
I was just wondering what the general opinion of animal sacrifice is...?

My personal opinion is, quite frankly, I love animals and I just don't think I could go through with it. I also don't think I could sit quietly by during a ritual while a priestess/shaman/Sorcerer Supreme cut the throat of a dove or a goat.


Sacrifice is against my belief, yikes. Killing something ritualistically though could be ok if it was of the proverbial 4 horseman, which I intepret in no particular order to mean defense against war, pestilence/plague, famine, and violence. I also love all animals and try not to even kill an ant, failing that I try to do it as painless as possible.

Asch

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2011, 11:18:03 pm »
Quote from: Adder;4425
Killing something ritualistically though could be ok if it was of the proverbial 4 horseman, which I intepret in no particular order to mean defense against war, pestilence/plague, famine, and violence.


Could you elaborate on that?

Adder

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2011, 11:39:56 pm »
Quote from: Asch;4432
Could you elaborate on that?

For me an acceptable ritual would be something to assist in discarding the negative energies which led to the animal being in the ritual in the first place. Trying to elevate its being to a higher vibration. I dont want it to sound like punishment though, I am talking about at last resort to protect from violent invasion by hostile warring, spread of fatal disease by pests, starvation killing for survival, and finally self defence from attack by any animal for any other reason (insanity etc). Those reasons just happen to arguably coincide with the biblical 4 horseman, hence my reference.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 11:41:45 pm by Adder »

Asch

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2011, 11:51:00 pm »
Quote from: Adder;4436
For me an acceptable ritual would be something to assist in discarding the negative energies which led to the animal being in the ritual in the first place. Trying to elevate its being to a higher vibration. I dont want it to sound like punishment though, I am talking about at last resort to protect from violent invasion by hostile warring, spread of fatal disease by pests, starvation killing for survival, and finally self defence from attack by any animal for any other reason (insanity etc). Those reasons just happen to arguably coincide with the biblical 4 horseman, hence my reference.

 
Hmm. I think I'm still confused. Correct me if I'm wrong but, you're saying that the only time you would sacrifice an animal is if it were being invaded/at war, it was infested with a fatal disease, starving, or in self defense? Or are you talking about if *you* were at war, diseased, starving or threatened?

Adder

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2011, 12:23:30 am »
Quote from: Asch;4438
Hmm. I think I'm still confused. Correct me if I'm wrong but, you're saying that the only time you would sacrifice an animal is if it were being invaded/at war, it was infested with a fatal disease, starving, or in self defense? Or are you talking about if *you* were at war, diseased, starving or threatened?

No, sorry for the confusion, my original post started by making a differentiation, specifically "Sacrifice is against my belief, yikes. Killing something...." and then went on to list acceptable killing because otherwies I agreed with the OP that life was important or sacred.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 12:24:30 am by Adder »

Valentine

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2011, 02:19:40 am »
Quote from: Adder;4444
No, sorry for the confusion, my original post started by making a differentiation, specifically "Sacrifice is against my belief, yikes. Killing something...." and then went on to list acceptable killing because otherwies I agreed with the OP that life was important or sacred.


Wait, so what is the distinction you're making between "sacrifice" and "ritual killing"?  I'm a little lost here.  And in what way is sacrifice incompatible with a belief in life as sacred and important?
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Asch

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2011, 02:30:09 am »
Quote from: Valentine;4465
Wait, so what is the distinction you're making between "sacrifice" and "ritual killing"?  I'm a little lost here.  And in what way is sacrifice incompatible with a belief in life as sacred and important?

 
This.

Also I think I'm still confused on your original point, how does acceptable killing jive with your previous statement about negative energy?

Adder

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2011, 04:01:21 am »
Quote from: Asch;4469
This.

Also I think I'm still confused on your original point, how does acceptable killing jive with your previous statement about negative energy?

Sacrifice by definition can mean giving away something of value, a trade, suffering a loss for anothers gain. Ritual killing does not need to be sacrificial. So I said I didnt agree with sacrifice, but could see how I might agree with ritual being applied with some types of killing, as outlined.

In regards to the jive of when killing might be ok to me, its that they already have negative energy which they are trying to pass on, and so self defense is obvious, they are attacking you. With mortal disease again it is a form of attack albeit unwittingly most likely, but that ritual might not be suitable, it might just be to cleanse the energy of the disease from the animals spirit which youve killed for your own health reasons. Faminine rituals might be just offering a sacrifice of yourself to try and compensate for taking an innocent creatures life etc
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 04:10:44 am by Adder »

Juniperberry

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Re: Sacrifice.
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2011, 05:38:53 am »
Quote from: Adder;4484
Sacrifice by definition can mean giving away something of value, a trade, suffering a loss for anothers gain. Ritual killing does not need to be sacrificial. So I said I didnt agree with sacrifice, but could see how I might agree with ritual being applied with some types of killing, as outlined.

In regards to the jive of when killing might be ok to me, its that they already have negative energy which they are trying to pass on, and so self defense is obvious, they are attacking you. With mortal disease again it is a form of attack albeit unwittingly most likely, but that ritual might not be suitable, it might just be to cleanse the energy of the disease from the animals spirit which youve killed for your own health reasons. Faminine rituals might be just offering a sacrifice of yourself to try and compensate for taking an innocent creatures life etc

Are you the least bit concerned with attaching personal need and emotion towards killing. I ask, because I think sometimes we can justify doing something in the heat of the moment that actually isn't justifiable.

It's easy to say that you would only kill under threat but in an emotional moment this threat could have extremely blurry lines. There was a case here recently about a man who went hiking alone and on the trail two dogs approached. The man felt threatened and pulled his gun and when the owner came around the corner waving his arms and yelling the man shot him fatally in the chest. Because he felt threatened but no real threat had been established. He's in prison.

I also find the notion that you can kill someone because YOU find them negative is dangerous as well. In fact, I find all of your reasons bordering dangerous territory, moreso than a rational and structured sacrificial ritual.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 05:42:23 am by Juniperberry »
The pace of progress in artificial intelligence (I’m not referring to narrow AI) is incredibly fast. [...] The risk of something seriously dangerous happening is in the five year timeframe. 10 years at most.--Elon Musk

I am in the camp that is concerned about super intelligence," [Bill] Gates wrote. "First the machines will do a lot of jobs for us and not be super intelligent. That should be positive if we manage it well. A few decades after that though the intelligence is strong enough to be a concern. I agree with Elon Musk and some others on this and don\'t understand why some people are not concerned."

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