Author Topic: Dragon Worship Resources? (Read 3853 times)

Shine · « **on:** July 06, 2012, 05:29:10 pm »

This feels like a long shot, but here goes. . .

I'm looking for books, websites, etc. on dragon worship. I've done Google searches but all I get is sites about RPGs and Biblical stuff.

I'm most concerned with Europe and northern Africa. The "western-style" dragons are most appealing to me.

I am not very interested in Chinese or Japanese dragon worship, which cuts my range of resources into itty-bitty pieces, I understand. I can't use anything too Wiccish because it wouldn't be allowed in my home (I live with a family of Wicca-haters, don't ask).

Scholarly books about dragons are welcome as well, if you have a good rec. Thanks.

RandallS · « **Reply #1 on:** July 06, 2012, 05:52:10 pm »

Quote from: Shine;62981

I'm most concerned with Europe and northern Africa. The "western-style" dragons are most appealing to me.

As far I know, there never was any worship of western dragons.

monsnoleedra · « **Reply #2 on:** July 06, 2012, 06:10:11 pm »

Quote from: RandallS;62986

As far I know, there never was any worship of western dragons.

The closest I can think of would be Tiamet in Babylonian lore. Even in eastern lore dragon worship is not really seen though they are elements of water. Can't recall if it's D.J. Conway but most dragon worship stuff I hear of originated from the book Dancing with Dragons. Since I hold Conway in such low esteem I don't give it much credeance as real.

Shine · « **Reply #3 on:** July 06, 2012, 06:51:54 pm »

Quote from: RandallS;62986

As far I know, there never was any worship of western dragons.

I was afraid of that.

I know they were seen as monsters early on, and then I think they became Christian symbols of evil to be defeated by men of God.

A few years ago, I heard about someone starting a "dragon tradition". It was very (neo-) Wiccan in practices, but I thought maybe after all these years someone would have come up with/found something else.

Quote from: monsnoleedra

The closest I can think of would be Tiamet in Babylonian lore. Even in eastern lore dragon worship is not really seen though they are elements of water. Can't recall if it's D.J. Conway but most dragon worship stuff I hear of originated from the book Dancing with Dragons. Since I hold Conway in such low esteem I don't give it much credeance as real.

Blech, Dancing With Dragons. Wiccish to the max and not very. . . well put together. I think I still have the book because of the artwork.

Thanks for the lead on Tiamat. It's somewhere to start at least.

Erinnightwalker · « **Reply #4 on:** July 06, 2012, 08:27:11 pm »

Quote from: Shine;62998

Blech, Dancing With Dragons. Wiccish to the max and not very. . . well put together. I think I still have the book because of the artwork.

There's a sequel. Its even worse. She can't possibly believe everything she writes because there's so much effing overlap and great whopping piles of doo-doo all over the place -.-

Shine · « **Reply #5 on:** July 06, 2012, 08:59:10 pm »

Quote from: Erinnightwalker;63011

There's a sequel. Its even worse. She can't possibly believe everything she writes because there's so much effing overlap and great whopping piles of doo-doo all over the place -.-

:sick: ohmyohmy. I never was into the "astral dragon" stuff she seemed so fond of. :\ I mean, if we take "astral" to be synonymous with "spiritual", then I believe it exists, but something about Conway's approach just didn't sit right with me.

The only book from her I like is the one about mythical beasts, but in retrospect, even that one's a bit silly.

Anyway, still searching for resources. I found Draconic Wicca, but that's not going to work.

Lokabrenna · « **Reply #6 on:** July 06, 2012, 10:00:42 pm »

Quote from: Shine;63013

:sick: ohmyohmy. I never was into the "astral dragon" stuff she seemed so fond of. :\ I mean, if we take "astral" to be synonymous with "spiritual", then I believe it exists, but something about Conway's approach just didn't sit right with me.

The only book from her I like is the one about mythical beasts, but in retrospect, even that one's a bit silly.

Anyway, still searching for resources. I found Draconic Wicca, but that's not going to work.

The only book besides Conway's writings that I've heard of on this topic is Parker J. Torrence's Sea, Land, Sky: A Dragon Magick Grimoire. Here's a review of it at Pagan Book Reviews: http://paganbookreviews.net/2007/07/10/sea-land-sky-a-dragon-magick-grimoire-parker-j-torrence/

Apparently it's marginally better than Conway's stuff--which isn't saying much, still...maybe it's worth a look?

Outside of those books, one memorable account of a Pagan interacting with dragons is from Yasmine Galenorn's Totem Magic: Dance of the Shapeshifter in which she talks about mythical creatures as helpers and power animals. It's not exactly a scholarly book, and not exactly a primer for an entire draconic tradition, but it's a start.

Shine · « **Reply #7 on:** July 06, 2012, 10:07:52 pm »

Quote from: Lokabrenna;63026

The only book besides Conway's writings that I've heard of on this topic is Parker J. Torrence's Sea, Land, Sky: A Dragon Magick Grimoire. Here's a review of it at Pagan Book Reviews: http://paganbookreviews.net/2007/07/10/sea-land-sky-a-dragon-magick-grimoire-parker-j-torrence/

Apparently it's marginally better than Conway's stuff--which isn't saying much, still...maybe it's worth a look?

Outside of those books, one memorable account of a Pagan interacting with dragons is from Yasmine Galenorn's Totem Magic: Dance of the Shapeshifter in which she talks about mythical creatures as helpers and power animals. It's not exactly a scholarly book, and not exactly a primer for an entire draconic tradition, but it's a start.

Torrence's book is still a little too Wiccish for me. :\ I think I'm going to be on my own with this one. I might check out Galenorn.

Thanks for the leads.

Tana · « **Reply #8 on:** July 07, 2012, 06:25:54 pm »

Quote from: Erinnightwalker;63011

There's a sequel. Its even worse. She can't possibly believe everything she writes because there's so much effing overlap and great whopping piles of doo-doo all over the place -.-

Oh dear gods.
She wrote a sequel?

Run, you fools! Hide the children!

'Dancing with Dragons' is really one of the worst books, I've ever read.

veggiewolf · « **Reply #9 on:** July 07, 2012, 06:31:00 pm »

Quote from: Tana;63124

Oh dear gods.
She wrote a sequel?

Run, you fools! Hide the children!

'Dancing with Dragons' is really one of the worst books, I've ever read.

'Dancing with Dragons'? It sounds like a Gilderoy Lockhart book to me.* snicker*

Tana · « **Reply #10 on:** July 07, 2012, 06:46:08 pm »

Quote from: veggiewolf;63125

'Dancing with Dragons'? It sounds like a Gilderoy Lockhart book to me.* snicker*

Well, magickal her (Conway) writes a lot of BS about dragons.

I will never ever forget the paragraph in which she explained about how important it is to take the whole business of dragon magic serious and then - with the same breath basically - tells her readers, that it is absolutely ok to tinker a diadem together out of cardboard and tinfoil.

And her horrible, fake, wrong Latin made me cringe.
Yes, D.J., I know 'Draconis' sounds wonderful, but if you use Latin and you want to call a dragon you need to use the vocative, not the genitive.

Erinnightwalker · « **Reply #11 on:** July 07, 2012, 10:48:59 pm »

Quote from: Tana;63124

Oh dear gods.
She wrote a sequel?

Run, you fools! Hide the children!

'Dancing with Dragons' is really one of the worst books, I've ever read.

Oh my dear and lovely lady.... Dancing With Dragons is a paragon of a usable, well-thought out system compared to the sequel.

Mystical Dragon Magick: Teachings of the Five Inner Rings is full of crap from the tip of the nose to the ends of the toes. Its tries very very hard to be "wizardly" (swiping fluid condensers and iconography from ceremonial magic, for example) while sounding like a bad New Age trip. You go on a guided meditation to visit the ~~Underworld~~ I mean, Halls of Rebirth, guarded by dragons, of course, with your own private dragon in attendance. You also go on a meditation to capture a Rouge Dragon (in your Warrior phase, by the by- apparently as you gain ~~experience points~~ I mean, grow and learn as a MaJizzical BEEing, you go from "Apprentice to Enchanter, Shaman to Warrior, and finally culminating as Mystic".)

(Also, I just frakking ADORE how to be a "Shaman", you only have to know a little about astral bodies and aura healing before you jump into your first soul retrieval. Also how she absorbs stuff from all over the world into her Franken-Dragon. Also {maybe especially} how Tiamat becomes a holy Seer and Guardian of the Gates of Balance instead of Chaos incarnate. I bet this book works SOOOOO WEEEEELLLLLLLL.)

Here's a link to the Google Books preview of it, for the masochistic and/or curious among you.

Juniperberry · « **Reply #12 on:** July 08, 2012, 05:46:59 am »

Quote from: Shine;62981

This feels like a long shot, but here goes. . .

I'm looking for books, websites, etc. on dragon worship. I've done Google searches but all I get is sites about RPGs and Biblical stuff.

I'm most concerned with Europe and northern Africa. The "western-style" dragons are most appealing to me.

I am not very interested in Chinese or Japanese dragon worship, which cuts my range of resources into itty-bitty pieces, I understand. I can't use anything too Wiccish because it wouldn't be allowed in my home (I live with a family of Wicca-haters, don't ask).

Scholarly books about dragons are welcome as well, if you have a good rec. Thanks.

I'm not 100% on this but I do believe european dragons are a crazy evolution of the draugr (note similarity). Draugr were the undead that generally couldn't rest in peace because they were so concerned with their hoard.

I started a search for some references but got distracted. I'll look again if you're interested.

Tana · « **Reply #13 on:** July 08, 2012, 05:49:16 am »

Quote from: Erinnightwalker;63161

o.O

OK, one should never say: It couldn't get worse.

Shine · « **Reply #14 on:** July 08, 2012, 10:43:37 am »

Quote from: Erinnightwalker

Oh my dear and lovely lady.... Dancing With Dragons is a paragon of a usable, well-thought out system compared to the sequel.

After having read the preview to the sequel, I would like to say that I agree. Dancing With Dragons is amazing compared to the sequel. I read the bit about "dragon ethics" and wanted to scream. Ugh, if you're going to make something up--and it's not like she didn't have time between the freakin' books--at least make sure the system makes sense.

What I don't like in general is how dragons seem to replace

(a) animal familiars/shamanic familiars
(b) elementals

The first case is better, but it seems like people who fall into the second camp are just using dragon faces on the different elements. :\ More power to them, it's just not my cuppa.

I also don't know how I feel about the magic(k)al "uses" of dragons, but that's another "your-cuppa-is-not-my-cuppa" thing.

Quote from: Erinnightwalker

. . . how Tiamat becomes a holy Seer and Guardian of the Gates of Balance instead of Chaos incarnate. I bet this book works SOOOOO WEEEEELLLLLLLL.)

And Tiamat-as-a-dragon (well, in our sense of the word) seems to be largely a modern thing. Also, I don't think I'd want Tiamat guarding my Gates of Balance. Just saying.

Quote from: Juniperberry;63179

I'm not 100% on this but I do believe european dragons are a crazy evolution of the draugr (note similarity). Draugr were the undead that generally couldn't rest in peace because they were so concerned with their hoard.

I started a search for some references but got distracted. I'll look again if you're interested.

I would love it if you could dig out those references when you've got the time. Thanks for your help.