Herne made up by Shakespeare?

[Marilyn/Absentminded]

But I thought that the cuckold was a man with an adulterous wife? Granted, I am also looking at Wiki, which... as we all know, is a bit iffy.

I can't remember where I encountered this story, and in fact it may have been made up by the person who told it me (my family being what it was ), but that is exactly where I was told the 'horned' reference came from. In the story I was told, Herne was a king's huntsman whose wife was unfaithful. It was his heartbreak which caused him to withdraw into a hermit-like existence in the woods. Possibly after murdering his wife - it's fuzzy.

He sort of grew stories from there. I can't think of them, and any I know are unlikely to be historical anyway. I think at one point I thought he was the huntsman who couldn't bring himself to murder Snow White.

Absent

[Darkhawk]

But I thought that the cuckold was a man with an adulterous wife? Granted, I am also looking at Wiki, which... as we all know, is a bit iffy.

Yes. Being cheated on is not a crime. One doesn't get punished for it, though one may be socially embarrassed and mocked - which is what the horns of the cuckold indicated.

[Darkhawk]

Well, I could see some folks believing that. If there's an historical basis for him not being a deity, I have more of a problem with it-- but it's a personal thing, and I'm not about to point down at someone and say, "HEY. IDIOT. He's not real!" Because if it's real for that person, fine. It's faith, belief.

Why do you think that living as a human being is historical evidence that someone isn't a god now?

[NibbleKat]

Why do you think that living as a human being is historical evidence that someone isn't a god now?

I don't have a problem with deities that were once human becoming gods. Caesar is a big example of this; I know folks who believe (like the Romans did, if my shaky memory serves me right?? Could be wrong) that he ascended from human status to being a god. I should have made that clear and said "Deity -- once human or otherwise" My apologies.

I also don't have a problem with deities have little or no evidence for ever existing being worshipped.... Two of my deities have very scant 'paper trails', as it were, when it comes to archaeological evidence and NONE for any mythos.

What I do have a problem with is if Herne were never really a man at all and if he were never a spirit/deity/brown man etc. What if Shakespeare (or whoever wrote his plays) made him up, or simply wrote down a local legend that had no basis in a real human or (for lack of a better term) supernatural being? (We will never be able to find this out, of course.)

I think that it is good to question faith and beliefs. Otherwise, we blind ourselves. I personally am in a constant state of questioning. (Probably to the point of it being detrimental in some cases.) For me, this discussion is very much an intellectual posit, something to converse about, not any sort of means to point and laugh at folks.

What would it mean if the above were true (the bit about Herne being a bedtime story made up by folks, not about me pointing and laughing?) What would that mean to the people who worship him? Would it change things? Is it possible? Is it wrong to ask these questions?

I guess what is in my mind is... yes, one needs to be open minded and respectful of other people's beliefs, realize that there truly are deities that through UPG have been rediscovered over time after history has destroyed all evidence of their ever existing (isn't there a member here who worships M'Lady?) but one should at least now and then ask a few questions. For example, someone might read about a wonderful Irish goddess, set up an altar to her, do a lot of UPG work, build up a relationship, and never find out that the Potato Goddess "documented" by Edain McCoy never existed...

There's just a thin wobbly line that I like to explore now and then, and because of the little blurb I read in the Lore of the Land, I'm very, very much into exploring this one, while trying to be as least offensive as I can. I'm not trying to accuse. Just trying to ask (and seeming to do a poor job of communicating it.)

[NibbleKat]

I can't remember where I encountered this story, and in fact it may have been made up by the person who told it me (my family being what it was ), but that is exactly where I was told the 'horned' reference came from. In the story I was told, Herne was a king's huntsman whose wife was unfaithful. It was his heartbreak which caused him to withdraw into a hermit-like existence in the woods. Possibly after murdering his wife - it's fuzzy.

He sort of grew stories from there. I can't think of them, and any I know are unlikely to be historical anyway. I think at one point I thought he was the huntsman who couldn't bring himself to murder Snow White.

Absent

Yes, and not having that Lore of the Land book in front of me, I can't remember what the "crime" was that he did.

[NibbleKat]

Yes. Being cheated on is not a crime. One doesn't get punished for it, though one may be socially embarrassed and mocked - which is what the horns of the cuckold indicated.

Understood! Thank you for clearing it up.

Again, what I mentioned in the post above this is that, not having that book in front of me (no net access at home, am in the parking lot of McDonald's using their wifi right now), I can't remember what crime (if stated at all) that the Lore of the Land said he was accused of-- just that he was hanged from an oak tree for a crime.

[MadZealot]

As an aside, I've always been led to believe that Herne = Cernunnos = the Greenman.

... with a dash of Robin Wood thrown in. Big Green Woodsy Archetype.

[Jezebel]

Originally made up or not, he's real for a lot of people now and that would settle it for me, at least from a spiritual point.

As an aside, I've always been led to believe that Herne = Cernunnos = the Greenman. Then again, I don't know a whole lot about any of them, so ya learn something new every day.

From what I've read and heard, Herne was based on the figure of the King's huntsman and with his death became a huntsman to the god (whether Cernunnos or the Greenman, or both).

This would fit with his role as a member of the Wild Hunt, and I can see how it would be easy to combine or mistake him for the embodiment of one or more of the masculine nature gods, though I don't believe that they are one and the same.

[NibbleKat]

From what I've read and heard, Herne was based on the figure of the King's huntsman and with his death became a huntsman to the god (whether Cernunnos or the Greenman, or both).

This would fit with his role as a member of the Wild Hunt, and I can see how it would be easy to combine or mistake him for the embodiment of one or more of the masculine nature gods, though I don't believe that they are one and the same.

I hadn't heard the it about him being huntsman to the god! I'd love to know more about that, if you can find sources. If not,

[Jezebel]

I hadn't heard the it about him being huntsman to the god! I'd love to know more about that, if you can find sources. If not,

It was a while ago since I've researched all this stuff so bear with me!

http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/gods...rne_Hunter.htm

There's this:

In Margaret Murray's 1931 book, God of the Witches, she posits that Herne is a manifestation of Cernunnos, the Celtic horned god. Because he is found only in Berkshire, and not in the rest of the Windsor Forest area, Herne is considered a "localized" god -- and could indeed be the Berkshire interpretation of Cernunnos.

Though because he's characterised as a 'localised' god, that makes me inclined to interpret him into more of an emissary role than an actual aspect of the god, seeing as his legend bases him as a human/ghost.