Open-System Objectivism (Randian)

[cigfran]

That said, I understand if you're surprised that I found the Asatru picture of the proper relationship between man and the divine beautiful. What I mean is that I like how it doesn't debase, demean or diminish humanity, nor does it demand humility or acceptance of inferiority. Rather, it encourages human greatness.

Asatru in common practice has far less to do with one's relationship to the divine and far more to do with one's relationship to the land, the family and the community. It is based on a strongly communitarian ideal of mutual reciprocity and responsibility. Certain expressions of it, such as Theodism, have an authority structure.

Asatru in practice is pretty much the opposite of Randian Objectivism.

[StudiodeKadent]

Quite. In my experience Atheism equates antitheism which is a whole 'nuther ball o'yarn. Not exactly what you're presenting I think.

I am an anti-theist with respect to Christianity especially (I know more about various Christian theologies than other religions), and I guess against Yahweh/Jehovah generally. That said, there are some variants of Christianity I have little quarrel with.

Remember that most anti-theists implicitly understand "god" in a Christian-esque way, i.e. Omniscient/Omnipotent/etc. etc. Creator Ex Nihilo We All Know Where This Goes.

I think that the vast majority of anti-theists would be much less harsh towards religions with non-grovel views of the relationship between humanity and the divine than they are towards Christianity etcetera.

Ooooo... now this is interestig. Why not?

I'm an Open-System Objectivist (i.e. non-cultish Ayn Randian). Our morality's three cardinal values are Reason, Purpose and Self-Esteem. Their corresponding virtues are Rationality, Productiveness and Pride.

As for WHY Pride is a good thing (according to my perspective), basically it is because pride (which Objectivism understands in terms of trusting the competence of one's judgment and realizing one is worthy of happiness and fulfillment) is considered necessary to live a properly human life and flourishing.

There's also a critique of humility; generally I'd argue that humility is used as a social control mechanism. Make someone doubt their competence and worthiness and they'll flee into the arms of authority to be relieved of the duty to think independently, etc.

This is only a brief statement though, the full explanations and theories are more detailed.

[StudiodeKadent]

Asatru in common practice has far less to do with one's relationship to the divine and far more to do with one's relationship to the land, the family and the community. It is based on a strongly communitarian ideal of mutual reciprocity and responsibility. Certain expressions of it, such as Theodism, have an authority structure.

Asatru in practice is pretty much the opposite of Randian Objectivism.

I never said I agree with everything in Asatru. I said I like its vision of the relationship between man and the divine. That's scarcely the same as a blanket endorsement of the whole religion, and yes, I do have my disagreements with it.

Mutual reciprocity and responsibility (or community or family) are scarcely anti-Objectivist. You seem to implicitly believe that individualism is about being solitary and having no relationships. This is untrue. Indeed, Objectivist philosopher Dr. David Kelley has argued that social benevolence is a primary virtue in Objectivism (see his book Unrugged Individualism for more). The argument Kelley makes is that relationships with others are a value, and so it is in one's rational interests to nourish these relationships.

Objectivism is opposed to Comtean Altruism. Mutual reciprocity and responsibility aren't Comtean Altruism. Indeed, Objectivism supports the ethic of reciprocity (we call it "the Trader Principle"), which is by definition mutual.

Valuing the community, or relationships, or family, isn't necessarily anti-individualist at all.

I agree re. Theodism, by the way. Authority structures are not compatible with Objectivist ideas, in spite of the personality cult of the original NBI days (an unfortunate phenomenon to say the least).

Still, "pretty much the opposite of Randian Objectivism" is a very, very strong claim. I'd disagree. There's significant common ground in ethics, not merely on the issue of human dignity but also on specific virtues (Integrity, Honesty, keeping one's contracts, Justice, etc.).

[Elani Temperance]

...Compared to the self-debasing "grovel-spirituality" we get out of the Abrahamic Monotheisms...

I wanted to add a few quick words to say that, in your POV, my practice would most likely involve a whole lot of groveling. Between the daily offerings and prayers, small moments of quiet worship and a general submission to the will of the Gods, I'm quiet sure my practice rivals or even tops that of many practitioners of the Abrahamic faiths So while a multitude of religions and systems within (Neo-)Paganism are 'grovel-free', a lot are not. And that is exactly how their practitioners like it.

[StudiodeKadent]

I wanted to add a few quick words to say that, in your POV, my practice would most likely involve a whole lot of groveling. Between the daily offerings and prayers, small moments of quiet worship and a general submission to the will of the Gods, I'm quiet sure my practice rivals or even tops that of many practitioners of the Abrahamic faiths So while a multitude of religions and systems within (Neo-)Paganism are 'grovel-free', a lot are not. And that is exactly how their practitioners like it.

I understand. I hope you haven't been offended, by the way.

[Elani Temperance]

I understand. I hope you haven't been offended, by the way.

Absolutely not! I know my way is not for everyone. It wasn't always for me either. I was just sharing information which might be relevant to the understanding of (Neo-)Paganism and this board.

[StudiodeKadent]

Absolutely not! I know my way is not for everyone. It wasn't always for me either. I was just sharing information which might be relevant to the understanding of (Neo-)Paganism and this board.

Ahh. I'm glad I haven't offended you, and I thank you for sharing the information. I appreciate your openness.

[HeartShadow]

Welcome to the Cauldron!

[StudiodeKadent]

Welcome to the Cauldron!

My thanks! And I greatly appreciate the warm welcome.

[Nachtigall]

as well as IIRC the classical Hellenic view (with the whole myth of Prometheus, Hubris-Nemesis etc)).

Everything in moderation... While hubris is an important concept, our gods hardly expect us to be weak and worthless.
I believe, even the satanists have a concept such as "counterproductive pride"? Humility is, basically, realistically asserting your strengths and weaknesses.
Also, speaking of Prometheus - the overall conflict between the Titans and the Olympians is, in my opinion, not really about hubris or humility.