Eclectic in the making?

[Morphidae]

I should note, however, that if you were a Southern Baptist, my point would still stand.



Brina

Well, yeah. But that would be a cold day in hell. Hah!

[PlaceboArtist]

I'm afraid flaws with both of these statements. The first is a gross misrepresentation of the teachings of the Old and New Testaments. God is pretty clear that other gods are a no-no, period. The second statement is profoundly disrespectful to the actual Christians who attend the OP's church. Christianity of almost every stripe is very much not about just going through the motions.

Brina

A) I said Jesus's teachings, not the Bible. And I said that for a reason. That reason being that Jesus himself makes no mention of the number of gods, or any teachings against witchcraft. Also, even if I *was* suggesting that the whole Bible can be incorporated, 'Thou shalt have no other gods BEFORE ME' Implies at the most henotheism, but it could well be polytheism and I can certainly envision a practice in which multiple gods where honoured but Yaweh was top dog. Whether other gods would be ok with that, I don't know. Secondly, in 'In the beginning when God created the world, everything was formless and empty' The word that is translated here as 'God' is plural - Elohim.

B) I didn't say it was right or wrong. I said it was possible and it happened. Besides which, it is also possible not to 'just go through the motions' and not necessarily honour exactly the same idea of deity through the rituals and prayers.

ETA: Yeah, I'm late to the party, but I just want to make the reasons behind what I said clear.

[yewberry]

[QUOTE=PlaceboArtist;57936]A) I said Jesus's teachings, not the Bible. And I said that for a reason. That reason being that Jesus himself makes no mention of the number of gods, or any teachings against witchcraft.

My original response to this post got lost in the shuffle (it's the one immediately after). I was specifically talking about the incompatibility between Christianity and paganism, not witchcraft. Folk magic isn't paganism.

Also, even if I *was* suggesting that the whole Bible can be incorporated, 'Thou shalt have no other gods BEFORE ME' Implies at the most henotheism, but it could well be polytheism and I can certainly envision a practice in which multiple gods where honoured but Yaweh was top dog. Whether other gods would be ok with that, I don't know. Secondly, in 'In the beginning when God created the world, everything was formless and empty' The word that is translated here as 'God' is plural - Elohim.

I think the quoted passage in my previous post here covers my opinions on that subject. If one believes that all gods are one god, then your assertion may make some sort of sense to me...but even then it feels like a stretch.

Brina

[ConjureWitchery]

I was specifically talking about the incompatibility between Christianity and paganism, not witchcraft. Folk magic isn't paganism.

Apparently we both have been making the same statement. I think I made the same statement, but words don't always come out the way I mean them.

[Jabberwocky]

No modern, Western, mainline Christian denomination absolves its followers from following the Ten Commandments.

Elements in both the liberal and universalist wings of the Society of Friends come near at times, although that's still a pretty contentious development, especially in the former. It's because they massively downplay the importance of scriptural authority in comparison to following the call of the "inner light".

That arguably makes it more complex though. When there are a handful of denominations that would be suitable for someone attracted to both Christianity and Paganism, the question of whether it's disrespectful to attend a denomination that wouldn't approve is more stark, not less.

[Jabberwocky]

I feel like a fraud in my church lately...not because I don't believe in Christ's teachings, but because I don't necessarily believe ALL of it. I work with children on a regular basis at church. I'm expected to teach them in the Christian faith. It becomes a matter of consience when I don't believe something specific that I'm asked to teach.

I can sympathise totally with that; my girlfriend is going through a similar (if somewhat more minor) issue at the moment. She's a teacher at a Catholic school. They know she isn't Catholic, but there's still issues with the fact she's seen as a role model by the kids. Which raises issues like whether she attends Mass with the children etc. She eventually decided to do so, as nothing in her own belief system precludes doing so. But it's even more complex for you, because of them not knowing about the extent of your current views. With her, the fact she's going to mass despite not being a Catholic (so she obviously doesn't take communion) is at least out in the open.

Which leads me onto this:

Even more than the actual doctrines of my church, I a great loyalty and obligation to the clergy and the congregation there. Therein lies my biggest conflict.

In terms of obligations, what do you think their views would be on you teaching religious belief to the children if they knew that you didn't necessarily believe everything you were putting across? That strikes me as very important; in terms of your loyalty and obligation to them, there's an argument that they deserve to be able to make an informed decision on the issue. They can't do that when they're unaware of it. I do lean towards thinking you should at least talk to the priests about what you're going through.

[Jabberwocky]

(I'm using the KJV for this post. That isn't a statement on it's authenticity in comparison to other translations. I just like the language usage!)

A) I said Jesus's teachings, not the Bible. And I said that for a reason. That reason being that Jesus himself makes no mention of the number of gods, or any teachings against witchcraft.

Not directly, but Matthew 5:18 puts paid to that argument unfortunately.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Yes, the idea that segments of Mosaic law no longer apply is mainstream Christian theology now. But it's really not possible to make a convincing case for Jesus rejecting parts of the OT.

Also, even if I *was* suggesting that the whole Bible can be incorporated, 'Thou shalt have no other gods BEFORE ME' Implies at the most henotheism, but it could well be polytheism and I can certainly envision a practice in which multiple gods where honoured but Yaweh was top dog. Whether other gods would be ok with that, I don't know. Secondly, in 'In the beginning when God created the world, everything was formless and empty' The word that is translated here as 'God' is plural - Elohim.

Exodus isn't the only part of the Bible that covers this though.

Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

(Deuteronomy 4:35)

For you are great, and do wondrous things: you are God alone.

(Psalm 86:10)

And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

(John 17:3)

There's a lot more along those lines, but you get the idea. I agree that there is enough evidence there to argue a henotheistic interpretation, though even that isn't as clearcut as you suggest. But there really isn't a way I can see to legitimately argue that the Bible condones polytheism.

This isn't like the issue of homosexuality, where there's both translation and contextual arguments that can be made. Scripture is completely clear on the position that Jews (and by extension Christians) aren't free to worship multiple gods.

That doesn't mean it can't be done. I touched on this in the Christo-Pagan thread. While it's possible, it means a) accepting that even liberal Christians are going to consider you a heretic and b) rejecting the idea of scriptural authority entirely.

Pantheism is a bit less of an issue and only necessitates the first of those conditions, although it's still a very radical interpretation of scripture.

[PlaceboArtist]

Not directly, but Matthew 5:18 puts paid to that argument unfortunately.

The conversion of Peter shows that at least some parts of the old law were done away with:

He became hungry and wanted something to eat; while the food was being prepared, he had a vision. He saw heaven opened and something coming down that lookes like a large sheet being lowered by its four corners to the earth. In it were all kinds of animals, reptiles, and wild birds. A voice said to him 'Get up Peter, kill and eat!' But Peter said 'Certainly not, Lord! I have never eaten anything ritually unclean or defiled.' The voice spoke to him again, 'Do not consider anything unclean that God has declared clean.'

Acts 10:10-15 (I'm using the Good News Bible because that's the version I have in my house.)

That quote does away with kosher law, and the scene with Jesus and the adulteress is (rightly, in my opinion) stopping the stoning laws out of Deuteronomy.

'Teacher', they said to Jesus, 'This woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. In our Law Moses commanded that such a woman must be stoned to death. Now, what do you say?; They said this to trap Jesus, so that they could accuse him. But he bent over and wrote on the ground with his finger. As they stood there asking him questions, he straightened himself up and said to them, 'Whichever one of you has committed no sin may throw the first stone at her.' Then he bent over again and wrote on the ground. When they heard this, they all left, one by one, the older ones first. Jesus was left alone with the woman still standing there. He straightened himself up and said to her, 'Where are they? Is there no one left to condemn you?' 'No one, sir', she replied.

John 8:1-11

With that in mind, it's hard to say that Jesus upheld the old law in its entirety.

[yewberry]

That quote does away with kosher law, and the scene with Jesus and the adulteress is (rightly, in my opinion) stopping the stoning laws out of Deuteronomy.

Okay. Where's the passage that okey dokes worshiping other gods?

Brina

[Juniperberry]

Okay. Where's the passage that okey dokes worshiping other gods?

Brina

Why are we still hung up on gods? The OP herself said she didn't consider the gods of myths as deities of worship. She's concerned with concepts and a relationship to the natural world. Which, quite frankly, is what attracts 99.5% of people to paganism who then go on to find gods afterwards.

Pagan concepts ("pagan") can be compatible with Christianity despite the gods or God you chose to worship.