Prejudice in the pagan community against "neo-wicca" - what do you think?

[Jenett]

"Listen to the words of the Great Mother, Who of old was called Artemis, Astarte, Dione, Melusine, Aphrodite, Cerridwen, Diana, Arionrhod, Brigid, and by many other names..."

It's worth noting here that the Charge of the Goddess is a non-oathbound piece of text, and therefore its applicability to oathbound BTW practice is not possible for people outside a particular oathbound tradition to determine.

(There's some awesome stuff in that piece of text. But it is *not* a Wiccan creed - a statement of belief that everyone in the religion follows. Nor is it a text that every tradition makes central.)

[Rhyshadow]

It's worth noting here that the Charge of the Goddess is a non-oathbound piece of text, and therefore its applicability to oathbound BTW practice is not possible for people outside a particular oathbound tradition to determine.

(There's some awesome stuff in that piece of text. But it is *not* a Wiccan creed - a statement of belief that everyone in the religion follows. Nor is it a text that every tradition makes central.)

Especially considering that Gerald and Doreen pulled a lot of that from Leland and other earlier sources, so it wasn't even an original creation then.

It IS a wonderful piece though, and the matching Charge of the God that people have put together over time is also a good piece of work.

[Darkhawk]

Good to know

Alright, I'll edit to 'The God and Goddess' but I would like to point out that IMO the all-are-one thing doesn't exclude the existence of the separate Gods and Goddesses. As stated in the Charge of the Goddess (the Starhawk adaption, true):

"Listen to the words of the Great Mother, Who of old was called Artemis, Astarte, Dione, Melusine, Aphrodite, Cerridwen, Diana, Arionrhod, Brigid, and by many other names..."

Starhawk isn't Wiccan either. She was initiated by Victor Anderson.

[SunflowerP]

Definitely Neo-Wicca wasn't really around when Cunningham's Wicca: A Guide for the Solitarty Practitioner was published -- his book isn't really Neo-Wiccan. However, by the time Ravenwolf's To Ride a Silver Broomstick was published, Neo-Wicca existed and this book was Neo-Wiccan.

<nodnod> To a very great extent, NeoWicca was built upon Cunningham's work, often by readers reading things into it that he didn't actually say, or interpreting things he did say more broadly than he intended (often more broadly than the text supports, though in some cases his word choices did have implications I don't think he meant them to).

Not just Cunningham's work, of course; I can see the seeds going back as far as books from the early '70s (there's quite a bit in Buckland's The Tree that, if taken out of the context of Seax-Wica as a system, is pretty proto-NeoWiccish, f'ex), and would posit that they had already started to sprout before Cunningham. What Wicca: A Guide... provided that made it so very influential was (with some interpretational stretching, as noted above) a structure - a loose one, or maybe it'd be more apt to call it instructions for building a loose structure - around which the nascent developments could conform.

Whereas SRW, as you said, was writing about the already-extant new approach that had arisen from that confluence - had almost certainly, IMO, been a part of the development, but Silver Broomstick was a reflection of the result, not of the process.

IIn case it's not clear, this is "agreeing and expanding", not in any way disagreeing with what you said.)

Sunflower

[SunflowerP]

(There's some awesome stuff in that piece of text. But it is *not* a Wiccan creed - a statement of belief that everyone in the religion follows. Nor is it a text that every tradition makes central.)

IME, BTW generally treat it as excellent advice (and/or as effective ritual theatre), not as theological doctrine.

Sunflower

[RandallS]

I can see the seeds going back as far as books from the early '70s....

In hindsight, it is pretty obvious where some of the ideas that became central in Neo-Wicca came from, although in many cases I doubt the original sources were intended by their writers to be interpreted as they were. I know The Tree wasn't.

[Micheál]

I think a part of it is also the length of time Trad Wiccans spend training. It's a minimum of a year and a day to reach the first degree, and then the same again for the second and third, though it's expected to take longer.

That's most generally the case, but it is also down to the individual. I for one got my I*under a year without completing a full Sabbat cycle, but I also know of people where it took a couple years. Training aside, it's also about completing what's required of you to you elders' satisfaction, proving your dedication, and for them to agree that you are right for them, and them you. There are general time-frames&requirements for such that continue throughout the degrees, but when you're ready, you're ready. Gardner was rumoured to put some through all three degrees in one night!

(There's some awesome stuff in that piece of text. But it is *not* a Wiccan creed - a statement of belief that everyone in the religion follows. Nor is it a text that every tradition makes central.)

Oh indeed, a few lines really hit home with me, but it's definitely not central. I'm not sure if your Tradition does something similar Jenett, but in ours at least Elders even come up with their own Charges, many on the spot, because after all The Charge is just a means. Even Doreen herself grew bored of her own because she witnessed too many bleating it word for word without the emotion it was meant to arouse.

<nodnod> To a very great extent, NeoWicca was built upon Cunningham's work, often by readers reading things into it that he didn't actually say, or interpreting things he did say more broadly than he intended (often more broadly than the text supports, though in some cases his word choices did have implications I don't think he meant them to).

Oh yes, indeed. What I do find odd is that many who do enter the pagan community on his Wicca: A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner, and think they're connecting with ancient concepts that they feel entitled to label "Wicca," tend to read over where he says in his own words during the preface, "The Wicca as described here is "new." It is not a revelation of ancient rituals handed down for thousands of years." I can definitely see a foundation for Neo-Wicca there.

[Jenett]

There are general time-frames&requirements for such that continue throughout the degrees, but when you're ready, you're ready. Gardner was rumoured to put some through all three degrees in one night!

If I remember right, there's fairly good evidence for that. (That said, people discovered that this has a much greater tendency to break the initiate and throw their life into turmoil after, compared to spreading it out and/or taking more prep time, which is why most modern groups do take their time.)

Oh indeed, a few lines really hit home with me, but it's definitely not central. I'm not sure if your Tradition does something similar Jenett, but in ours at least Elders even come up with their own Charges, many on the spot, because after all The Charge is just a means. Even Doreen herself grew bored of her own because she witnessed too many bleating it word for word without the emotion it was meant to arouse.

Something like that, yeah. I should probably explain, since there's probably readers going "Huh" in here, that the purpose of Doreen's Charge was, as far as we know, to have a meaningful alternate that could be used when someone did a Draw Down but where the Goddess in question was either not articulate or articulate to individuals, but there needed to be something to the group as a whole.

In my practice, it's much more preferable to either have the Goddess in question speak to everyone individually (for a small enough group) or say something new and original to the group. I've been in rituals that do both, and I've been the Priestess doing the Draw for the latter: I swear it works.

Rituals I've been at where they use Doreen's Charge, I hear different things in it each time I hear it (which is useful), but it's not nearly as intriguing to me as all-new content. On the whole, I'd rather not force a Draw or the use of a prepared Charge at all, and if the Draw produces a Goddess who articulates in word, awesome, and if not, still fine.

[SunflowerP]

In hindsight, it is pretty obvious where some of the ideas that became central in Neo-Wicca came from, although in many cases I doubt the original sources were intended by their writers to be interpreted as they were. I know The Tree wasn't.

I'm pretty sure none of the writers intended - or expected - the interpretations and wide-ranging effects. Cunningham, f'ex, was almost certainly writing for the sort of bootstrap eclectic solitaries that already existed, supposing that future bootstrap solitiaries would be of much the same sort, and never dreamed his own words would give rise to a quite different sort. Perhaps more to the point, I don't think he conceived of himself as being or becoming such an influential, venerated, larger-than-life figure, and never dreamed his words could have that much influence.

As for The Tree, I'd guess that it never occurred to Buckland that people would do anything other than make use of it as a system.

Sunflower

[RandallS]

As for The Tree, I'd guess that it never occurred to Buckland that people would do anything other than make use of it as a system.

At the time it was written, no one would have thought it would be otherwise used. Hindsight is ever so much better.