Anyone Knowledgeable about the Jewish Faith?

[Darkhawk]

Could you tell me what some of those were? Any others such as not being David's descendant and not rebuilding the temple?

I have very little knowledge of the messianic threads of Judaism, so no. I simply know that he did not qualify.

I originally was under the impression he had fulfilled the prophecies. Were there any that he did fulfill? Or was it all the early Christians trying to stick a round peg into a square hole?

IIRC the Gospel of Matthew in particular was an attempt to spin-doctor the events of Jesus's life in order to suggest that the events had been foretold, up to and including cherry-picking lines out of context and suggesting that they were foreshadowing (as opposed to, as was generally understood at the time, commentary on the present of when the texts were written).

Any particular reason Jesus Christ got picked out as "special"?

Dedicated, noisy followers who several centuries down the line wound up with the backing of an empire.

[Darkhawk]

cherry-picking lines out of context and suggesting that they were foreshadowing (as opposed to, as was generally understood at the time, commentary on the present of when the texts were written).

Addendum: and in fact those lines are generally understood by scholars (Jewish and otherwise) to be commentaries about the time of the texts' writings, not fortellings of future events.

Dedicated, noisy followers who several centuries down the line wound up with the backing of an empire.

Also, someone took the notion of converting goyim. There are a lot more potential gentile converts than people interested in minor Jewish splinter sects following yet another failed messiah.

[Ula]

I know very little about Judaism, but on purely logical grounds I don't think that could be the reason. In the early years of the Christian faith only Jews could become Christian. It wasn't until later that a decision was made to allow gentiles to convert too. That would indicate that originally he was only for them, not everyone.

I think it had more to do with the politics of the time, and the fact that Jesus was not the only one who 'fit the profile', and that he did things, or things were done in his name, to make him fit it. Politics, not religion.

However, there are people on this board who are far more knowledgeable than I, and hopefully they will come in on this.

Absent

That's not true. Paul went to Greece and Christ tried to convert a Sumerian.

[Jabberwocky]

Could you tell me what some of those were? Any others such as not being David's descendant and not rebuilding the temple?

Not gathering all Jews back into the land of Israel. Not ushering in an era of world peace and uniting humanity as one. (Note that there is no concept of the 'Second Coming' in Jewish theology, so the Messiah is expected to fulfil this prophecy at the time of their arrival). Not leading the Jews to full Torah observance, instead breaking Torah commandments several times. Jewish theology reads Deuteronomy 13:1-4 as specifically saying that any messianic claimant who encourages Jews to move away from Torah observance is a false prophet.

I originally was under the impression he had fulfilled the prophecies. Were there any that he did fulfill? Or was it all the early Christians trying to stick a round peg into a square hole?

He fulfilled some of them but, in my view, they're the more general ones that could apply to lots of people. He was well-versed in Jewish law, a charismatic figure and a judge who made righteous decisions. The more specific ones are the ones where the claim falls down.

And the time of his rise did come after a period of war and suffering, which is also fitting with prophecy.

Any particular reason Jesus Christ got picked out as "special"?

The obvious answer is that he had a critical mass of worshippers that outlived his life.

Why that might be, compared to other messianic claimants, is more complex. I think a significant factor is the fact that his teachings were very much spiritual as opposed to worldly. Because the focus of his teaching was very much on the world to come, as opposed to the world that he was in, it meant that he couldn't be proved or disproved; it's a matter of faith.

That's what differentiated him from most other Messianic claimants. It's worth comparing him to Bar Kokhba. Bar Kokhba was actually a more credible claimant, in terms of attempting to fulfil the prophecies. (He's probably the most credible claimant there's ever been).

However, he led a revolt against Roman rule. It succeeded at first but was eventually crushed. At which point, it was self-evident the claim to Messiah status had failed. So that's a real difference; when someone is attempting to fulfil the parts of the prophecy that are about being a successful military commander it logically progresses to having actually success/failure conditions. That wasn't the case with Jesus.

That's why, while Bar Kohba is still cited as an inspirational figure by some of the radicals round the Jewdas/Heeb axis of Judaism, you no longer find anybody who believes he was the Messiah. Indeed, that was pretty much the case as soon as his revolt was crushed.

[Morphidae]

The obvious answer is that he had a critical mass of worshippers that outlived his life.

That makes sense. I like to learn about the history behind the Bible. I thought I would get it from the two supplementary books I was reading, but one is too simple (Bible for Dummies) and one is too dry and "one true way"-ish (The Complete Bible Handbook.)

[RandallS]

During my "light" perusal of the Bible and some accompanying reading (Bible for Dummies and The Complete Bible Handbook), I became curious why Jews don't believe that Jesus Christ was their Messiah. It seems like an obvious progression from the Old to New Testament. I'm clearly missing something. What is it?

I'm sure our Jewish members can go into more detail, but its basically what others have said, Jesus did not fulfill the requirements/expectations of the Messiah. As I understand, the Messiah was expected to be:

* a descendent of King David
* observant of Jewish law
* a righteous judge
* a great military leader

The Jewish Messiah is also "just a human being" not somehow God in human form.

[sailor]

I'm sure our Jewish members can go into more detail, but its basically what others have said, Jesus did not fulfill the requirements/expectations of the Messiah. As I understand, the Messiah was expected to be:

* a descendent of King David
* observant of Jewish law
* a righteous judge
* a great military leader

The Jewish Messiah is also "just a human being" not somehow God in human form.

Off the top of my head that's about the main points. All my references are back stateside, but you can go to www.chabad.org and ask them questions; or www.myjewishlearning.com for articles.

[HeartShadow]

That makes sense. I like to learn about the history behind the Bible. I thought I would get it from the two supplementary books I was reading, but one is too simple (Bible for Dummies) and one is too dry and "one true way"-ish (The Complete Bible Handbook.)

I'm curious - did you read the Bible in the order it's written, or a different order?

If you read some of the New bits first, then the Torah bits can be viewed with that lens. If you read them in a different order, so you don't see things already leading TO Christ, you see it differently.

[Sage]

I'm curious - did you read the Bible in the order it's written, or a different order?

If you read some of the New bits first, then the Torah bits can be viewed with that lens. If you read them in a different order, so you don't see things already leading TO Christ, you see it differently.

IIRC, the Hebrew Bible is ordered differently than the Christian Old Testament. Books and such got shuffled around to make it look like it was leading up to Jesus. No citations right now since I'm away from home and thus my books, but I heard this in a New Testament class at a very liberal northern university, if that makes any difference.

[mandrina]

I've been reading the Bible over the last year. It's something I wanted to accomplish at least once in my life. I'm near finished with it. I'll be done June 3rd. I've not been doing it in depth but rather a surface reading.

During my "light" perusal of the Bible and some accompanying reading (Bible for Dummies and The Complete Bible Handbook), I became curious why Jews don't believe that Jesus Christ was their Messiah. It seems like an obvious progression from the Old to New Testament. I'm clearly missing something. What is it?

ETA: I believe that whatever the reasons, they are perfectly valid. I'm just curious what those reasons are.

It seems like an obvious progression because: the bible was written that way, by people who knew what to write to make this man look like he fulfilled the prophecies and to not put in anything about him that said otherwise. They also reinterpreted the propohecies to make him fit them.. At the same time, they got the power of an empire behind them. I'm sure given those abilities, Id all of us at the cauldron worked together, we could write some gospels about you that would make you the messiah. we'd just have to find other people who believed it from what we wrote, and then get a powerful government behind us to help.

but really, go to the websites sailor mentioned. He's jewish, so he's probably got the best answer to this question.