Witch Goddess

[Juniperberry]

Hel, means "whole" at least in swedish I don't know where the word comes from. Hel is by some of the authors said to come from the Proto- Indo- European goddess Kolyo which means "the coverer".

What I'm saying is that before Hel was a goddess (if she ever was a goddess, it's debatable) that it only meant a place. Going to "hel" just meant dying, going to the grave, etc.

O.E. hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions," from P.Gmc. *haljo "the underworld" (cf. O.Fris. helle, Du. hel, O.N. hel, Ger. Hölle, Goth. halja "hell") "the underworld," lit. "concealed place" (cf. O.N. hellir "cave, cavern"), from PIE *kel- "to cover, conceal, save" (see cell).

It's not just about death/underworld goddesses. It's more about fertility/death and one goddess being responsible for both, or two sides of one goddess, one "white" and one "black".

It's actually more likely that Freyr was the deity where death and fertility were joined.

I guess what I would like to know is if the "witch goddess" as just one goddess has any base in history,

No.

and also where the Freya/Hel similarities come from?

They aren't the same goddess...maybe if you could be more specific about the similarities noticed by the authors you're reading?

[SunflowerP]

I found a pretty good article about this, I haven't read all of it yet, but it's about this topic and I thought it might interest some of you. I hope it's ok to post links.

http://www.suppressedhistories.net/s...htregenda.html

Links are fine, but that one needs a caveat: its "histories" aren't so much "suppressed" as just plain false.

Sunflower

[Haugatysja]

What I'm saying is that before Hel was a goddess (if she ever was a goddess, it's debatable) that it only meant a place. Going to "hel" just meant dying, going to the grave, etc.

O.E. hel, helle, "nether world, abode of the dead, infernal regions," from P.Gmc. *haljo "the underworld" (cf. O.Fris. helle, Du. hel, O.N. hel, Ger. Hölle, Goth. halja "hell") "the underworld," lit. "concealed place" (cf. O.N. hellir "cave, cavern"), from PIE *kel- "to cover, conceal, save" (see cell).

Ok, then there is evidence for Hel and Kolyo having things in common. Kolyo was just seen as death in PIE religion (or the reconstruction of it). "The Coverer" and "halja" etc seem have similar meanings.

They aren't the same goddess...maybe if you could be more specific about the similarities noticed by the authors you're reading?

Well, this is going to be fun . In Hedge-Rider, Eric de Vries writes: "Sometimes Frau Holle appears as a woman with half a black and half white face" (De Vries 2008: 46-47). This makes me think of He since she is often descibedl as half human half skeleton. And: "From the root "kol", meaning hollow, the words hill, hall, hole, hollow, Hell and the name Hel are derived.[...] Also the name Holda/Holle is derived from the root "kol", basically stating that Holda/Holle means exactly the same as Hel" (De Vries 2008: 49).

And further on: "Not only does She bring fertility in the sense of children, she also is the Matron of Marriage and governs the more sensual aspects also attributed to Freya. In fact Freya and Holda are in several ways one and the same" ( De Vries 2008: 53). To me this means Hel is Holda, is Holle, is Freya, and it does not make sense.

In Light from the Shadows: A Mythos of Modern Traditional Witchcraft Gwyn writes: " Holda is both a "Hag goddess of winter, and a vibrant queen of sexuality who is the bestower of gifts"[...]" (Gwyn 1999:47). A couple of pages further on Gwyn states: "Holda in fact shares many attributes with the Norse Goddess Freya [...]" (Gwyn 1999: 49). Gwyn does not mention Hel, she does mention the Norns though.

Nigel Aldcroft Jackson writes in Call of the Horned Piper "[...] Frau Holda is the archaic underworld earth Mother, mistress of death, initiation and rebirth, who rules over the chthonic realm of Hel or Annwyn. In Scandinavia she is known as Hela, [...] of whom is related that half of her is fair and half black with decay. This signifies her bright and dark aspects as Freya/Holda mistress of life and death" (Jackson 1994: 17).

I'm actually getting a bit confused as to what I'm actually trying to find out, but I think the focus is the Hel/Freya/Holda parallels drawn by Eric de Vries and Nigel Jackson. I get the Holda/Freya similarities, but if Holda and Hel are the same, then so should Hel/Freya, or so it seems, hence the confusion.

[Haugatysja]

Links are fine, but that one needs a caveat: its "histories" aren't so much "suppressed" as just plain false.

Sunflower

Do you mean that the author is making things up?
I haven't read the whole article yet and I can't really say anything about it's authenticity.

[Juniperberry]

I'm actually getting a bit confused as to what I'm actually trying to find out, but I think the focus is the Hel/Freya/Holda parallels drawn by Eric de Vries and Nigel Jackson. I get the Holda/Freya similarities, but if Holda and Hel are the same, then so should Hel/Freya, or so it seems, hence the confusion.

Well here's part of the problem:

"Overview Hedgerider: Witches and the Underworld is a re-interpretation of (Hedge-)Witchery. Drawing from an extensive historical, folkloric and mythological body it re-attributes and re-defines Witchery as a Heathen Cult centred around the journey to the Underworld and contact with the Unseen."

Don't have a lot of time right now to address the rest.

[Ula]

Do you mean that the author is making things up?
I haven't read the whole article yet and I can't really say anything about it's authenticity.

You can read 50 different interpretations but eventually you will have to come up with something that feels right to you. For whatever reason I experience Holda as a distinct entity different from Freya and Hela. I would never put Hela and Freya together. There are too many stories of them being different beings.

As far as Hela being or not being a goddess, she certainly rules the land of Helheim and protects the dead. Most of the females of the Norse pantheon seem of with Lady as a title. The only reason I can see for her not being one is she is Jotun. I tend to error on the safe side and treat her as one.

[Juniperberry]

Ok, then there is evidence for Hel and Kolyo having things in common. Kolyo was just seen as death in PIE religion (or the reconstruction of it). "The Coverer" and "halja" etc seem have similar meanings.

I can't find any information on a Koylo goddess other than a few neopagan sites and De Vries' book.

Well, this is going to be fun . In Hedge-Rider, Eric de Vries writes: "Sometimes Frau Holle appears as a woman with half a black and half white face"

I'm not sure that this is entirely correct. Where else, besides De Vries, does it say this about Frau Holle?

(De Vries 2008: 46-47). This makes me think of He since she is often descibedl as half human half skeleton. And: "From the root "kol", meaning hollow, the words hill, hall, hole, hollow, Hell and the name Hel are derived.[...] Also the name Holda/Holle is derived from the root "kol", basically stating that Holda/Holle means exactly the same as Hel" (De Vries 2008: 49).

Hulda/Holda most likely relates back to the Norse word for loyal, and not to hel.

And further on: "Not only does She bring fertility in the sense of children, she also is the Matron of Marriage and governs the more sensual aspects also attributed to Freya. In fact Freya and Holda are in several ways one and the same" ( De Vries 2008: 53). To me this means Hel is Holda, is Holle, is Freya, and it does not make sense.

I haven't ever seen any mention of Hulda/Holle/Perchta/Berchta/ governing sexuality. Ever. The only real connection to children in the lore that Hulda takes custody of unbaptized children.

In Light from the Shadows: A Mythos of Modern Traditional Witchcraft Gwyn writes: " Holda is both a "Hag goddess of winter, and a vibrant queen of sexuality who is the bestower of gifts"[...]" (Gwyn 1999:47). A couple of pages further on Gwyn states: "Holda in fact shares many attributes with the Norse Goddess Freya [...]" (Gwyn 1999: 49). Gwyn does not mention Hel, she does mention the Norns though.

Again, I've never come across anything that connects Hulda with sexuality. Maybe it exists, but I need more than these two examples.

Nigel Aldcroft Jackson writes in Call of the Horned Piper "[...] Frau Holda is the archaic underworld earth Mother, mistress of death, initiation and rebirth, who rules over the chthonic realm of Hel or Annwyn. In Scandinavia she is known as Hela, [...] of whom is related that half of her is fair and half black with decay. This signifies her bright and dark aspects as Freya/Holda mistress of life and death" (Jackson 1994: 17).

Annwyn?

There are theories that Hulda was the source for a goddess Hel. And there is a connection with Freyja and death. But there isn't anything that would suggest that these female deities are all one in the same and a confusion of an older deity.

[Haugatysja]

Well here's part of the problem:

"Overview Hedgerider: Witches and the Underworld is a re-interpretation of (Hedge-)Witchery. Drawing from an extensive historical, folkloric and mythological body it re-attributes and re-defines Witchery as a Heathen Cult centred around the journey to the Underworld and contact with the Unseen."

Don't have a lot of time right now to address the rest.

Even if it's just a re-interpretation, I'd like to know where all this comes from. It's not that I don't believe it might have been made up, I do. I'm just very interrested in traditional witchcraft, and even if I'm not a traditional witch, a lot of things seem to resonate with me. I also like to do my research, if there is no basis in mythology or folklore for Freya/Holda/Hel parallels that's fine with me, as long as I know one way or the other. I thought this forum might be a good place to start.

[Haugatysja]

You can read 50 different interpretations but eventually you will have to come up with something that feels right to you. For whatever reason I experience Holda as a distinct entity different from Freya and Hela. I would never put Hela and Freya together. There are too many stories of them being different beings.

As far as Hela being or not being a goddess, she certainly rules the land of Helheim and protects the dead. Most of the females of the Norse pantheon seem of with Lady as a title. The only reason I can see for her not being one is she is Jotun. I tend to error on the safe side and treat her as one.

I have trouble with Freya/Hel aswell, and I have always seen them as two different beeings. I do think of Hel as a goddess, even if she Jotun, Hel just seems more "raw" than other dieties, maybe because she is Jotun, on the other hand she seems very unmovable and confined to the underworld.

[Haugatysja]

I can't find any information on a Koylo goddess other than a few neopagan sites and De Vries' book.

There is some on this page (not much), it looks neopagan, but it also seems well researched and the references look good.

http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/pier/deities.htm#18

I'm not sure that this is entirely correct. Where else, besides De Vries, does it say this about Frau Holle?

Again, I've never come across anything that connects Hulda with sexuality. Maybe it exists, but I need more than these two examples.

Just in his book, but Gwyn calls Holda the "White Lady" and writes that she is associated with fertility, but that she can transform into a hag when she gets upset, and that she is associated with winter in that form. She also writes that Holda is both bright and dark. (Gwyn 1999: 48).

There are theories that Hulda was the source for a goddess Hel. And there is a connection with Freyja and death. But there isn't anything that would suggest that these female deities are all one in the same and a confusion of an older deity.

I appreciate all the answers on this topic. Sometimes witchcraft books are written as an unbending truth and I find it difficult to know what to actually believe. It's good to know what others think, it makes me question things even more, which I believe is only healthy