Isfet: What Is It, Really?

[Devo]

That's true. I wonder if the ancient Egyptians accounted for that? The Declarations of Innocence keep coming to mind.

I think that's comparing apples to oranges. The 42 Confessions were more like cheat codes, and might have been used for priests before entering a temple- hardly something that every single Egyptian had to follow.

Some of the things Egyptians did to prisoners, or during times of unrest wouldn't fall under ma'at in today's terms, but was perfectly acceptable back then (and some of the things people did during times of unrest weren't within ma'at either, even back then).



I really don't believe ma'at was entirely rigid back then (the myth of Set and Osiris comes to mind). Maybe someone who has read more on it can add more input.

-Devo

[Staff of Sekhmet]

I've been trying to do research on isfet in the last two days, but I'm finding very little in regards to do. There's a blurb here and there about it, but aside from that... So, I pose the question to you swell people! What exactly is isfet? And if you know of any unexplored sections of the Interwebz that would have something on it, help a girl out?

Thanks!

I think that things like murder, cheating the poor, and things like that would be considered Isfet. I've seen Isfet called the act of uncreating within the House of Netjer, but as Devo said, there's really no absolute consensus on what that means. Things like murder are uncreating. Cheating the poor is uncreating, it's taking away possibilities to succeed. Usary is uncreating, it can really ruin a financial system, as we're seeing right now in the West. I think the Egyptians also saw another side of Isfet as related to Ap_p though

[Lotus]

I think that's comparing apples to oranges. The 42 Confessions were more like cheat codes, and might have been used for priests before entering a temple- hardly something that every single Egyptian had to follow.

Some of the things Egyptians did to prisoners, or during times of unrest wouldn't fall under ma'at in today's terms, but was perfectly acceptable back then (and some of the things people did during times of unrest weren't within ma'at either, even back then).

I really don't believe ma'at was entirely rigid back then (the myth of Set and Osiris comes to mind). Maybe someone who has read more on it can add more input.

-Devo

Yeah, some people have thought the Declarations as a way of getting through that battery of gods scot-free, but I see them as more of a guideline of how to live our lives. Gods forbid they become as rigid as the Ten Commandments, however. (Cheat codes, lol. If only they applied to life as well as video games!)

I also think the Egyptians were just as able to commit acts of violence during wars and other periods of unrest as other people, in the past and the present. People, during those times, will do anything in order to win the war or to simply survive. I'm not sure whether or not these sorts of actions are really relevant to maa't. Would I steal from a temple if I were starving during a famine? Maybe. Probably. This would probably come back to your speculation that ma'at wasn't rigid. Could anybody condemn a starving person for stealing? I'm thinking Egyptians were likely forgiving in those circumstances.

[Staff of Sekhmet]

Yeah, some people have thought the Declarations as a way of getting through that battery of gods scot-free, but I see them as more of a guideline of how to live our lives. Gods forbid they become as rigid as the Ten Commandments, however.

I always have to ask when the declarations come up, just to see where another person as a individual Kemetic stands on it, do you see the declarations as condemning homosexuality, or as condemning pedestry?

[Lotus]

I always have to ask when the declarations come up, just to see where another person as a individual Kemetic stands on it, do you see the declarations as condemning homosexuality, or as condemning pedestry?

To my knowledge, what we view as "homosexuality" was different in ancient times. To people in those days, homosexuality was defined as an older man taking a young boy as his lover. I think this goes for Greeks, Hebrews, and Egyptians, as well as other civilizations during that era (Please correct me if I'm mistaken!). In one of the versions of the Declarations I have, it translates this as "copulated with a child". This is the interpretation that I hold to. Same-sex couples are perfectly fine; those Catholic priests, however....

[Staff of Sekhmet]

To my knowledge, what we view as "homosexuality" was different in ancient times. To people in those days, homosexuality was defined as an older man taking a young boy as his lover. I think this goes for Greeks, Hebrews, and Egyptians, as well as other civilizations during that era (Please correct me if I'm mistaken!). In one of the versions of the Declarations I have, it translates this as "copulated with a child". This is the interpretation that I hold to. Same-sex couples are perfectly fine; those Catholic priests, however....

Okay yeah, that's how I take it too. I'm always just curious, because I've met some Kemetics who not only interpret it to mean the homosexual orientation, but use it like some absolute condemnation of gay people.

[veggiewolf]

Yeah, some people have thought the Declarations as a way of getting through that battery of gods scot-free, but I see them as more of a guideline of how to live our lives. Gods forbid they become as rigid as the Ten Commandments, however. (Cheat codes, lol. If only they applied to life as well as video games!)

I also think the Egyptians were just as able to commit acts of violence during wars and other periods of unrest as other people, in the past and the present. People, during those times, will do anything in order to win the war or to simply survive. I'm not sure whether or not these sorts of actions are really relevant to maa't. Would I steal from a temple if I were starving during a famine? Maybe. Probably. This would probably come back to your speculation that ma'at wasn't rigid. Could anybody condemn a starving person for stealing? I'm thinking Egyptians were likely forgiving in those circumstances.

The thing is, as you've already noted, ma'at is not a cut-and-dried good vs. evil concept. Waging war, with its acts of violence, in order to promote Divine Order is upholding it. We had a discussion about this when Arab Spring started, actually - one of our members mentioned that she didn't think Sekhmet was happy with the violence and some of us reminded her that Sekhmet upholds ma'at no matter the cost. If it takes war to bring things back into balance, so be it.

[Staff of Sekhmet]

some of us reminded her that Sekhmet upholds ma'at no matter the cost. If it takes war to bring things back into balance, so be it.

True that, as much as some of us may shrink from war. Sekhmet is what she is

[Lotus]

The thing is, as you've already noted, ma'at is not a cut-and-dried good vs. evil concept. Waging war, with its acts of violence, in order to promote Divine Order is upholding it. We had a discussion about this when Arab Spring started, actually - one of our members mentioned that she didn't think Sekhmet was happy with the violence and some of us reminded her that Sekhmet upholds ma'at no matter the cost. If it takes war to bring things back into balance, so be it.

Oh wow, yes. I only have to think of the myth of the destruction of humanity to come to the same conclusion. Heh.

[WhiteWolf]

Thing is, it's rarely that clear-cut.

What if someone is harming you? Would it be isfet to fight back?

What about unjust laws? Would breaking them and deliberately disobeying them be considered isfet?

I think context is beyond important when considering where one's actions fall.

-Devo

I don't believe it was isfet to fight back. For example, Horus was victorious because he avenged his father's death (Seth had killed Osiris). Putting things back into place was not considered isfet. Horus was "doing Ma'at" by avenging his father.

If the counties borders were unsecured causing them to be attacked by the sea people for example, it would be Ma'at to repel the invaders and have long lasting stability.