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Author Topic: Hekate Questions  (Read 3550 times)

Annie Roonie

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Hekate Questions
« on: April 12, 2012, 12:36:42 am »
I’ve been drawn to Hekate for many reasons which I will not go into as the post is pretty wordy as is; however, being drawn to her has led to more questions than answers for me. I am slowly doing my own follow-up research about questions that arose from reading Sarah Iles Johnston’s book as her presentation and writing style makes that fairly easy to do. Not so with Robert Von Rudolph’s Hekate in Ancient Greek Religion. IMO, his writing style and method of citation make it much more difficult to do follow-up.  I have questions that arose while reading his book (which was, in a one word review from a novice, irritating).

In any event, the questions I have at the moment could be answered by those who have a better more personal and greater knowledge of the goddess than I. I realize this is asking much of you by way of instruction, so if you can help even partially, it would be received with gratitude and understanding of the time and effort sacrifice. Also, my questions may be too personal. I will not take offense should no replies be made.

Questions:
When Iphigenia becomes or is called Hecate at her death and after she is an attendant of Artemis, what does this mean to you about Hecate? Is she there as an immortal to guide or make the way clear for Iphiginia’s soul/body to escape to her new position? Or is Hecate’s name being used more as synedoche? Is her name used to refer to people today or in anyway other than in reference to herself specifically?

That may be too much to ask in public, but I've thought it would make sense given the frequency of taking on a spirit after purging ego etc. in various initiatory religions that her devotees might be called by her name somewhere in the process if this kind process was undertaken. Von Rudolph wrote that several young women would sacrifice themselves to Artemis and be called Hekate at that time. Which makes me think synecdoche and wonder if this still happens at least in metaphor.

Von Rudolph talks about her five functions of kourotrophos, phosphororos, propylaia, propolos and chthonia (and mentions kleidouchos once). Could Hecate have been a much older deity, or father away in other aspects like geography of origin, whose roles were so varied that she could not be syncretized easily with other goddesses? What is your understanding of this? Could this parsing of her functions limit understanding of her? Do you have other experiences that would add to these functions? I gather the parsing is due the focus on analysis of archival information, but with that being limited, UPG becomes more relevant/potentially illuminating.

Von Rudolph refers to three mysteries in which Hecate is involved. The Eleusis, the Samothrace and Aigina.  I have read a little of the Eleusinian Mysteries and it seems clear that at least part of Hecate’s role in that pertained to her guiding and attending to Persephone. But Von Rudolph does not go into the mysteries at the other two places. I’ve only read the wiki on the mysteries at Samothrace and they seem very different with just that surface information. And I have not found anything about the Aigina Mysteries specifically. Does anyone have any information about Hecate’s roles in these other two mysteries? A credible site or book to recommend regarding them? Are the books about Greek and Roman magical religious practices the best ones to look for information about these mysteries?

I have another question that does not pertain to reading materials but I do not want to offend in asking. So I will be careful, but if I need a swift kick, I’ll put on my puffy pants. It is this: Why are so many of the videos and websites regarding Hekate sensual in tone?  It is only here and at academic sites where I do not see bosoms or other sexual imagery. Is there some modern aspect of Hekate that I am missing in regards to this?

~~~

I have budgeted for The Restless Dead and other books as finances permit in the future(Shout out to catja6 whose recommendations from another thread I’ve saved as a screen shot for book buying). So I may find answers to some of these in weeks to come. I’d gladly note more if you have them.  



Thank you for the time in reading even if you cannot or would prefer not to respond. :)
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 12:38:11 am by Annie Roonie »

monsnoleedra

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2012, 02:00:46 am »
Quote from: Annie Roonie;49830
.. When Iphigenia becomes or is called Hecate at her death and after she is an attendant of Artemis, what does this mean to you about Hecate? Is she there as an immortal to guide or make the way clear for Iphiginia’s soul/body to escape to her new position? Or is Hecate’s name being used more as synedoche? Is her name used to refer to people today or in anyway other than in reference to herself specifically?

For me this is part of the fussion of the Olympian pantheon.  You see the Anatolian gods / goddesses and how they are being reformatted to find their place within the mythos.

First you have the Taurian Artemis who is being identifed to the Olympian Artemis.  It is her high priestess that Iphigeneia will become and becomes known as Hekate.  Yet the story varies in that in early accounts Iphigeneia is actually killed while in later accounts she is replaced by Artemis and whisked away to become Hekate.  Yet she also serves as the instrument that will bring the holy image of Artemis out of that region and carry it to first her sanctuary at Bravonian (near Athens) then by her brother to Orthia (Sparta).

It's also part of the migration of the Anatolain Artemis' (Tuarian & Ephesian) and her merging as the Trojan war occurs.  At this same time you see Hekate/ Hecate not only being brought forth into the Olympian Pantheon but done so in such a manner as to loose little of her importance.  Yet her association to Artemis is also taking place during this period as well.  Thus you start to see things like Artemis of the Crossroads (Hekate-Artemis) and Hekate / Hecate of the wilderness (Artemis-Hekate).

One also see's other Anatolian gods / goddesses being brough in and in some ways where they probably originate from.  Apollo and Artemis for instance siding with the Trojans and thier origination close to the shores of modern Turkey.  Hekate / Hecate brough in as a titaness who sides with Zeus against the other Titans.  Then one looks deeper and see's that Hekate / Hecate's temple at Lagina borders upon the area of influence held by the Ephesian Artemis just to the south of it and Artemis' other temple at Sardis just to the east of it.  Then factor in the Taurian Artemis who would be to the North and Northeast of it.

I believe it may also touch upon an earlier notion that Hekate / Hecate may be another name for Artemis in her persona as Mistress of Animals.  In that fashion Artemis would be seen as holding dominion over all creatures from land, ocean and air thus a merging of the three realms that Hekate / Hecate is listed as holding.  Yet the important factor here is that the earlier Mistress of Animals / Earth Goddess was though to be Cybele who becomes connected to both Artemis and Hekate / Hecate as her cult was located in the same general region of Anatolia and probably influenced the cults of Artemis and Hecate / Hekate.

To add a little more confusion to the table I have seen some references that make Hecate / Hekate an elder goddess who originates from Arcadia making her an Arcadian goddess in origin.  Where it gets a bit more confusing is that she is also associated to the Arcadian Artemis who is an elder goddess of the forest and nature and associated to the Nymphs which carries into the Olympian Artemis.   Then like the Taurian and Ephesian Artemis the Arcadian Artemis has no connection to Leto or a brother in Apollo but are elder goddesses.

Quote
That may be too much to ask in public, but I've thought it would make sense given the frequency of taking on a spirit after purging ego etc. in various initiatory religions that her devotees might be called by her name somewhere in the process if this kind process was undertaken. Von Rudolph wrote that several young women would sacrifice themselves to Artemis and be called Hekate at that time. Which makes me think synecdoche and wonder if this still happens at least in metaphor.

This is actually the storyline of a novel written about Artemis' temple in Ephesus / Ephesos.  The book is titled Saronia, A Romance of Ancient Ephesus by Richard Short.  In the story the high priestess of the temple is know as Hekate and is the core of the temple and those who reach a certain degree are allowed to enter the area.  It's been a while since I read it but I seem to recall the inner most sanctum also beign called Hekate's chamber or lair or something similiar.  It's an older book and was pretty widely read from what I recall at the time of its publishing.

Other than that book I have not found it to be occuring any place else.  If it were I'd think it would be most appropriate to the Athenian Arkteia who served as bear maidens at Brauron.  There is a pretty good JSTOR article titled Alkman and the Athenian Arkteia that you might be interested in.  This one is important from the facet that when Iphigeneia flees her role as Hekate to the Taurin Artemis she establishes a sanctuary at Brauron adn the Sacred Idol is hung in the tree's there.  legend saying that Iphigeneia is also burried there in the Grotto.

Quote
Von Rudolph talks about her five functions of kourotrophos, phosphororos, propylaia, propolos and chthonia (and mentions kleidouchos once). Could Hecate have been a much older deity, or father away in other aspects like geography of origin, whose roles were so varied that she could not be syncretized easily with other goddesses? What is your understanding of this? Could this parsing of her functions limit understanding of her? Do you have other experiences that would add to these functions? I gather the parsing is due the focus on analysis of archival information, but with that being limited, UPG becomes more relevant/potentially illuminating.

I do tend to think she is from outside of Greece.

Quote
Von Rudolph refers to three mysteries in which Hecate is involved. The Eleusis, the Samothrace and Aigina.  I have read a little of the Eleusinian Mysteries and it seems clear that at least part of Hecate’s role in that pertained to her guiding and attending to Persephone. But Von Rudolph does not go into the mysteries at the other two places. I’ve only read the wiki on the mysteries at Samothrace and they seem very different with just that surface information. And I have not found anything about the Aigina Mysteries specifically. Does anyone have any information about Hecate’s roles in these other two mysteries? A credible site or book to recommend regarding them? Are the books about Greek and Roman magical religious practices the best ones to look for information about these mysteries?

I have not read this book so can not comment on it.  But one thing to ponder is that Hekate / Hecate is not associated with all versions of the Persephone story.  When she is associated with it it is Herme's that delivers the message to have her freed.  Then it becomes debatable as to how Hekate / Hecate leeds her out.  I've sort of followed the slant that Hekate / Hecate followed Persephone and held the torch over her to light the way yet not blind her by the torch being before her.  When Demeter reaches down to take Persephone and pull her up Hekate / Hecate is shown to be behind her at that time.   This same instance of Hekate / Hecate hearing the cries of Persephone is also not in all the stories.

Just an aside note but I've seen some scholary debate as to whether Hekate / Hecate was actually that important to Roman life, well outside of curse tablets.  In part based upon the fact no temple or sanctuary has been located or identified to be dedicated to Hekate / Hecate on Italian soil.  Can't think of any that are associated to Tri-Formus either who becomes the Roman equalivent of Hekate / Hecate.  Though one might also consider Diana Nemorsis (sp) as a Roman equalivent of Hekate / Hecate and the clearly defined three forms she takes.  Diana Nemorsis does have a dedicated sanctuary / temple area and a sacred lake.

Quote
I have another question that does not pertain to reading materials but I do not want to offend in asking. So I will be careful, but if I need a swift kick, I’ll put on my puffy pants. It is this: Why are so many of the videos and websites regarding Hekate sensual in tone?  It is only here and at academic sites where I do not see bosoms or other sexual imagery. Is there some modern aspect of Hekate that I am missing in regards to this?

Honestly I think it from a false image of her.  It's sort of like the notion of Bast being a goddess of sexual pleasure and lesbians.  It gets started and no one really objects.  I suppose one could equate it to the in-probability of the so called Hekate's wheel actually being something specifically to Hekate.  More likely it was a magical wheel that was used to aid in casting jinks, curses or other magical needs yet is associated to a number of goddess.  But that is a discussion for another place.

I also tend to think it is based upon the modern statuay and artworks that depict Hekate / Hecate in the artists UPG impression of her.

Hope this helps
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 02:05:18 am by monsnoleedra »

SkySamuelle

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2012, 04:52:24 am »
Quote from: Annie Roonie;49830

Questions:
When Iphigenia becomes or is called Hecate at her death and after she is an attendant of Artemis, what does this mean to you about Hecate? Is she there as an immortal to guide or make the way clear for Iphiginia’s soul/body to escape to her new position? Or is Hecate’s name being used more as synedoche? Is her name used to refer to people today or in anyway other than in reference to herself specifically?

That may be too much to ask in public, but I've thought it would make sense given the frequency of taking on a spirit after purging ego etc. in various initiatory religions that her devotees might be called by her name somewhere in the process if this kind process was undertaken. Von Rudolph wrote that several young women would sacrifice themselves to Artemis and be called Hekate at that time. Which makes me think synecdoche and wonder if this still happens at least in metaphor.



Extremely good point. Interestingly enough, I ran into this article on this very theme some time ago, I found it to be very inspiring and resounding with my concept of Hekate's liminality as a force of Transformation.

here it is : http://www.templeofhekate.net/blog/?p=248

Quote
Even Hekate herself can be considered a victim of transformation in the manner I have discussed, for according to Hesiod, in his catalog of Women, the Maiden Iphigenia, was sacrificed by her own father to appease the Goddess Artemis, but the Goddess felt sympathy for the maid and transformed her into “Hekate”. What Hesiod meant by this is unclear, obviously the knee jerk reaction is to assume that the girl literally became the Goddess Hekate; but I have harboured a small thought in my mind for a while, and I believe it is possibly supported by Euripides version of events portrayed in his two plays “Iphigenia in Aulis” and “Iphigenia in Tauris”. The former play describes the events around the slighting of Artemis and the girls sacrifice to aid her father, and how at the last minute the girl was whisked away by the Goddess and a deer left in her place, the latter then tells how Orestes, the maidens brother is sent by the God Apollo to Tauris to perform a task (again as recompense for a wrong doing) where upon we discover that the Priestess of Artemis is none other than Iphigenia herself.
 
What if by becoming a Priestess, the girl had in effect become Hekate; I have in my personal practise worked with the concept of “becoming Hekate”; the Chaldeans named Hekate as the world soul, and Theurgists strived to gain union with this divine essence; what if Iphigenias willing act of sacrifice allowed her to achieve, even momentarily, this union, this state of oneness with the divine?
 

Many Priests and Priestesses I know who name themselves as one of Hekates own, often place an emphasis on service, both to the Goddess and those around them who would strive to become closer and learn more; and her demands are often very precise, works of art and literature are often cited as being “by her command” and what better way to bring a soul closer to the divine than via the mediums which inspire and elevate the human condition.
 
Our transformations will obviously never be so physically profound as the anti-heroines of old, but that does not preclude them from being as meaningful, and with each little metamorphosis, perhaps, just perhaps, we will step one pace further towards becoming Hekate.


I find this bit to be very closely mirroring of my experience with Her.

Quote from: Annie Roonie;49830

Von Rudolph refers to three mysteries in which Hecate is involved. The Eleusis, the Samothrace and Aigina.  I have read a little of the Eleusinian Mysteries and it seems clear that at least part of Hecate’s role in that pertained to her guiding and attending to Persephone. But Von Rudolph does not go into the mysteries at the other two places. I’ve only read the wiki on the mysteries at Samothrace and they seem very different with just that surface information. And I have not found anything about the Aigina Mysteries specifically. Does anyone have any information about Hecate’s roles in these other two mysteries? A credible site or book to recommend regarding them? Are the books about Greek and Roman magical religious practices the best ones to look for information about these mysteries?


I think the Key Procession in Lagina is discussed in a section of Hekate Soteira by Sarah Iles Jhonston - very little is known about those rites tough.

Quote from: Annie Roonie;49830
I have another question that does not pertain to reading materials but I do not want to offend in asking. So I will be careful, but if I need a swift kick, I’ll put on my puffy pants. It is this: Why are so many of the videos and websites regarding Hekate sensual in tone?  It is only here and at academic sites where I do not see bosoms or other sexual imagery. Is there some modern aspect of Hekate that I am missing in regards to this?


This is something that has made me to wonder for sometime... while Hekate has an aspect as fertility goddess and is described as Hermes ' lover by , I don't experience Her energy as sexual one... still, Her presence has something very raw and primal at tmes, so I cannot bring myself to dismiss the idea of a more 'sensual' facet to Her.

Still, I can point you at least one article that wonders about he same questions you and I made to ourselves:

 http://wanderingwomanwondering.wordpress.com/2011/09/10/hekate-the-initiator/

There's something here I have not quite grasped completely and is probably linked to Hekate's role as initiator of Persephone but it has been on the back of my mind for so long that probably means something, eh.

Quote from: Annie Roonie;49830


I have budgeted for The Restless Dead and other books as finances permit in the future(Shout out to catja6 whose recommendations from another thread I’ve saved as a screen shot for book buying). So I may find answers to some of these in weeks to come. I’d gladly note more if you have them.  


Her Sacred Fires anthology by Avalonia Publishings is one of my avorite books about Hekate. It ìs a recollection of essays and rituals from various authors from various traditions that allows the voicing of a wonderful multiplicity of POVs and experiences on the goddess.
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Annie Roonie

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2012, 09:38:12 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;49838
For me this is part of the fussion of the Olympian pantheon.  You see the Anatolian gods / goddesses and how they are being reformatted to find their place within the mythos.

It's clear that this happened but interesting how such things happen. I think the process may be mirrored but to a lesser degree in how language changes.

Quote from: monsnoleedra;49838
Other than that book I have not found it to be occuring any place else.  If it were I'd think it would be most appropriate to the Athenian Arkteia who served as bear maidens at Brauron.  There is a pretty good JSTOR article titled Alkman and the Athenian Arkteia that you might be interested in.  This one is important from the facet that when Iphigeneia flees her role as Hekate to the Taurin Artemis she establishes a sanctuary at Brauron adn the Sacred Idol is hung in the tree's there.  legend saying that Iphigeneia is also burried there in the Grotto.

I will look for it! Thank you for the tip. And again, thank you for tipping me to the Perseus Digital Library. I found an inexpensive copy of Hesiod's work at Goodwill after I'd already read a good portion there.


Quote from: monsnoleedra;49838
I do tend to think she is from outside of Greece.

I do too. But I have to admire how she left her mark.


Quote from: monsnoleedra;49838
I have not read this book so can not comment on it.  But one thing to ponder is that Hekate / Hecate is not associated with all versions of the Persephone story.

I am aware of different versions, and I had to laugh today when riding and listening to  Charles Pricheta's The Mythology of Ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece and Rome and he said (Alec Sand reading) that the story was remarkably consistent.


Quote from: monsnoleedra;49838
Just an aside note but I've seen some scholary debate as to whether Hekate / Hecate was actually that important to Roman life, well outside of curse tablets.  In part based upon the fact no temple or sanctuary has been located or identified to be dedicated to Hekate / Hecate on Italian soil.

Pritcheta mentioned that there were no temples to Hades either and posited that it might be that he was too dark being from the underworld and people might have been intimidated by that. If that is so, then that might also apply to Hekate.


Quote from: monsnoleedra;49838
Can't think of any that are associated to Tri-Formus either who becomes the Roman equalivent of Hekate / Hecate.  Though one might also consider Diana Nemorsis (sp) as a Roman equalivent of Hekate / Hecate and the clearly defined three forms she takes.  Diana Nemorsis does have a dedicated sanctuary / temple area and a sacred lake.

Perhaps this is another connection with Artemis as Trivia.


Quote from: monsnoleedra;49838
Honestly I think it from a false image of her.  It's sort of like the notion of Bast being a goddess of sexual pleasure and lesbians.  It gets started and no one really objects.  I suppose one could equate it to the in-probability of the so called Hekate's wheel actually being something specifically to Hekate.  More likely it was a magical wheel that was used to aid in casting jinks, curses or other magical needs yet is associated to a number of goddess.  But that is a discussion for another place.

I cannot say the images are false. I did think it was a curious thing to focus on though, but then it might be a shared UPG that some folks have of her that others have picked up on.

The wheel is funny. It's a good representation of an idea and I think it incorporates and simplifies elements of other traditions that use Hekate as well as symbolizes the multiplicity of paths that may be used for any objective. There are several elements from the Chaldean Hekate represented but simplified in it IMO. I have another circle/triangle picture that I need to do more research about, but it I can see how a minimalist artist could represent more complicated elements like these with a more simplified wheel. I will try to attach it for curiosities' sake.

Quote from: monsnoleedra;49838

Hope this helps


It does, and I appreciate your time in responding!

[attach=CONFIG][/attach]
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 09:40:59 pm by Annie Roonie »

monsnoleedra

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2012, 10:24:57 pm »
Quote from: Annie Roonie;49939
It's clear that this happened but interesting how such things happen. I think the process may be mirrored but to a lesser degree in how language changes.

I agree with that.  It sort of reminds me of how nation building occurs as well when you consider that Greece was really starting to come together at the time of the Trojan War.

Quote
I will look for it! Thank you for the tip. And again, thank you for tipping me to the Perseus Digital Library. I found an inexpensive copy of Hesiod's work at Goodwill after I'd already read a good portion there.


Glad I could help.  I found it to be a very good read about Artemis and the Arketia.  Another JSTOR article you might be interested in is one titled Hecate: Greek or "Anatolian"?  don't know if the url is still good but it was http://www.jstor.org/stable/3269561  Source: Numen, VOl 21, Fase. 2(Aug 1974) pp 128-140 by William Berg.  It discussed her place of origin and pro's and con's of each as a possibility.

Quote
I do too. But I have to admire how she left her mark.

I can't prove it but I think Hekate / Hecate may have had a number of port shrines / temples.  As such she would be moved about the Med by sailors as would much of her lore and legends.  It's like Artemis also had a number of port shrines & temples that sailors would pay homeage to and leave offerings.

You can also see her influence on dogs in Greece.  There are some interesting facts on dogs at http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Dogs.htm  Site title Dogs in anceint and modern Greece near the top of the page under mythology.

Todate I can think of only one known Port Temple to Artemis (NAS (Tavropolio - Tavropolis, Goddess of the Bull)) http://www.island-ikaria.com/culture/siteNas.asp but there had to have been quite a few of them.  I think the same probably applied to Hekate / Hecate in her role as holding dominion over the seas and coastal waters.  Figuring for the most part sailors would not have been to far removed from coastal waters for trade.

Quote
Pritcheta mentioned that there were no temples to Hades either and posited that it might be that he was too dark being from the underworld and people might have been intimidated by that. If that is so, then that might also apply to Hekate.


That is possible as Hekate / Hecate really became a dark goddess beneath Roman rule.  Yet I have to wonder as well though when you see all the coins that were minted in the Roman empire that have dipictions of Hekate / Hecate upon them.  Granted most of those are to be found in the Anatolian region (modern Turkey) but some were also found in other areas though not so prolific.

Quote
Perhaps this is another connection with Artemis as Trivia.

Possibly.  While it doesn't deal specifically with the spiritual aspects of it there is a JSTOR article all about the coins that were done to represent Diana Nemorensis.  It's simply titles Diana Nemorenis by Andrew Alfoldi and was published in the American Journal of Archaeology, Vol. 64, No. 2 (Apr., 1960), 137-144.  It touches upon Diana / Artemis and Hekate on a surface level.

Quote
I cannot say the images are false. I did think it was a curious thing to focus on though, but then it might be a shared UPG that some folks have of her that others have picked up on.


When I say false its mostly in comparrison to those sites that use the more historical depictions of her from base relifs, statuary and pottery from the ancient world.  Those do not tend to be sexual or feminine in thier focus but play upon her areas of influence or how she was seen and understood.  It's like my avatar is from the image of her and Artemis upon the pergamon Zeus Altar and the Gigantomach - East Frieze.

Quote
The wheel is funny. It's a good representation of an idea and I think it incorporates and simplifies elements of other traditions that use Hekate as well as symbolizes the multiplicity of paths that may be used for any objective. There are several elements from the Chaldean Hekate represented but simplified in it IMO. I have another circle/triangle picture that I need to do more research about, but it I can see how a minimalist artist could represent more complicated elements like these with a more simplified wheel. I will try to attach it for curiosities' sake.


I can't give the author the credit she is due for this as the site is no longer on line but I think she describes it pretty well here.  This is from the site referenced in the other thread by Sunflower.

Quote
What is Hekate's wheel?
Here's my two cents worth, at least in regards to Hekate and magic wheels et al. I've only ever seen any indication of such in the later material, most particularly in magical contexts - for example, there's a an image of Hekate (not a flattering one at all) on a first century curse tablet that has a divided wheel motif also included (among others). Depictions of deities on such tablets was thought to be the empowering action -- the charging of the spell as it were.

Equating the iunx or iynx specifically with Hekate is problematic at best, as is describing it exclusively as a wheel. There are very strong associations of the iunx with erotic magic, weddings and Aphrodite, and sometimes it is described as being bird-shaped (or otherwise figural), rather than a wheel; there is some evidence that literary uses of the term may have been confused or conflated with the rhombus. Some describe binding a iunx bird to a wheel, and some even use the term to describe spells rather than an object or amulet.

For the wheel shaped iunx, one of the best (that is, clearest) images of it in use can be found in a Nereid wedding preparation scene depicted on an Attic red-figure pyxis (4thC BCE, in the British museum, if I recall correctly.) So, all in all, there seems to be as much evidence to connect the iunx with Aphrodite as with Hekate, and it doesn't seem to be exclusively wheel shaped at all, so the whole Hekate's Wheel seems to be a double misnomer, at least in a historical context.

Farone discusses the use of the iunx at length in Ancient Greek Love Magic, Harvard U Press. //CGJulian

For a modern interpretation of the iunx, see The Magick of Jinxing by Steve Moore.


Just a note but I believe the referenced topic The Magick of Jinxing is also off line but can be found through the link as well.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 10:26:58 pm by monsnoleedra »

Annie Roonie

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 10:35:02 pm »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;49851
Extremely good point. Interestingly enough, I ran into this article on this very theme some time ago, I found it to be very inspiring and resounding with my concept of Hekate's liminality as a force of Transformation.

here it is : http://www.templeofhekate.net/blog/?p=248


Thank you for that. I read it a while back and likely a nugget of it stuck and that has got to be at least partially why I had idea.

It came up again while reading and again after reading about the Eleusinian Mysteries and the tea and purification that was done prior. It reminded me of the ayahauscan vision quests and other such induced states that bring about a connection to higher realms and how through that connection a transformation is made. Perhaps humans are like in myth and unable to connect with a god with our normal consciousness.

And more on point with the article, I suspect that to be gifted with messages from Hekate would require a human with the ability to accept a different kind of consciousness even without the use of teas and the like.

The liminality coupled with the understanding of different forms of existence that Hekate seems to navigate or even be in control of could also pertain to consciousness. And it is a custom of a teacher to let the student be the master in order to learn. So maybe people do become her for periods of time. I must take a special kind of strength to let go and allow that, on both sides really.

Perhaps those who are guides themselves already are more open to her and that kind of experience. In Iphigenia's case, perhaps knifepoint was enough of a shock to the system to allow for the embodiment.

Quote from: SkySamuelle;49851
I find this bit to be very closely mirroring of my experience with Her.


If you'd ever like to share more I will be a reader. While I continue research reading, I am aware that at some point the UPGs or shared UPGs are going to help in understanding the functions and even evolution of this goddess.


Quote from: SkySamuelle;49851
I think the Key Procession in Lagina is discussed in a section of Hekate Soteira by Sarah Iles Jhonston - very little is known about those rites tough.


I remember and will revisit it. Thank you for reminding me! So much information I must get to storing it properly in my head.


Quote from: SkySamuelle;49851
This is something that has made me to wonder for sometime... while Hekate has an aspect as fertility goddess and is described as Hermes ' lover by , I don't experience Her energy as sexual one... still, Her presence has something very raw and primal at times, so I cannot bring myself to dismiss the idea of a more 'sensual' facet to Her.

Still, I can point you at least one article that wonders about he same questions you and I made to ourselves:

 http://wanderingwomanwondering.wordpress.com/2011/09/10/hekate-the-initiator/

There's something here I have not quite grasped completely and is probably linked to Hekate's role as initiator of Persephone but it has been on the back of my mind for so long that probably means something, eh.


Interesting article! I read your comment earlier today but had visitors and could not respond, but kept it on the back burner all day to see what bubbled up.

I have this much: Hekate seems to use and have access to all the tools in the toolbox.   Her myth has her in so many different functions and abilities that she uses like tools and Chaldean Hekate likewise has not only access to all the tools but she can allow it so that a new one is made and ensouled/purposed if necessary. Someone like that woud certainly not forget the oldies but goodies. Sex can be a magnificent tool! Why should she not use it too? She and Hermes caused some good stock to me made.

Anyway, that's my cog. dis. bridge for the moment. :)

But there is still a lingering in a workaholic head about it. Does she have any fun just for fun's sake? Does this goddess ever just chill? Or maybe her work is her fun.

Quote from: SkySamuelle;49851
Her Sacred Fires anthology by Avalonia Publishings is one of my favorite books about Hekate. It ìs a recollection of essays and rituals from various authors from various traditions that allows the voicing of a wonderful multiplicity of POVs and experiences on the goddess.


It is good to know what is in that one. When I have done a bit more background research, I'll find it. Seems a fit expansion.

Thank you for the links and the book tip and your consideration in responding!

I know it can be invasive to respond to questions about a god and of one's faith and I recognize and am thankful for your patience.

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 10:45:12 pm »
Quote from: SkySamuelle;49851
.. I think the Key Procession in Lagina is discussed in a section of Hekate Soteira by Sarah Iles Jhonston - very little is known about those rites tough..

Greg Crowfoot has a copyrighted article titled The Procession of the Key, a Seasonal Observance that discusses most of that and has some extracts from other documents on it.

There are a couple of links on the net to it but they open up directly into the file.  http://home.insightbb.com/~spectre/temple/text.html  There are a few other items by him on this listing as well.

edited to add:

I have not verified all the things so can not say whether the site is accurate in its entirety or not though many of the items I have looked at are pretty valid with regards to Hekate / Hecate.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 10:48:20 pm by monsnoleedra »

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2012, 10:52:58 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;49941
 .. Just a note but I believe the referenced topic The Magick of Jinxing is also off line but can be found through the link as well.


Went searching and found the link to the site.

http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/rit_jinx.html

Annie Roonie

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2012, 11:22:20 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;49941
I can't prove it but I think Hekate / Hecate may have had a number of port shrines / temples.  As such she would be moved about the Med by sailors as would much of her lore and legends.  It's like Artemis also had a number of port shrines & temples that sailors would pay homeage to and leave offerings.

That's an interesting thought. I frequent a secluded beach and recently had a flash there. I don't get them very often at the beach.  And I'm not going to jump on it being related to Hekate just yet, but she has been in mind and I have nobody else to tag the flash to yet. I may have to Google earth some coastlines.

Quote from: monsnoleedra;49941
That is possible as Hekate / Hecate really became a dark goddess beneath Roman rule.  Yet I have to wonder as well though when you see all the coins that were minted in the Roman empire that have dipictions of Hekate / Hecate upon them.  Granted most of those are to be found in the Anatolian region (modern Turkey) but some were also found in other areas though not so prolific.

Economy is the great uniter isn't it?

Quote from: monsnoleedra;49941
I can't give the author the credit she is due for this as the site is no longer on line but I think she describes it pretty well here.  This is from the site referenced in the other thread by Sunflower.

 
Just a note but I believe the referenced topic The Magick of Jinxing is also off line but can be found through the link as well.

Yes. I took that trip through the wayback machine link she provided too. Nice! And it gave me places to look further. In looking at several museums I did see the iynx associated with more than just Hekate and read that the dodecahedron might also have been associated with similar theurgic practices as the iynx.

However, I am making the iynx wheel not because of a relationship to Hekate (other than in looking in to her they came back to mind), but because I played with those as a kid. My father made them for me and my sisters. Get them going and they'd pinch a finger good. But entrancing they were and I think as a tool to achieve a kind of meditative state they might be useful. I need to find a square & center for perfect balance.

In any event, I ceased to think that the iynx was the historical justification for that wheel though. And even the dance at Samothrace (which I cannot remember where I read that it was in homage to), is so sketchy that I cannot see a relation there either.  


I have noted your links and will do some reading. w00t! Thank you very much for them and the time you took to share them!
« Last Edit: April 12, 2012, 11:29:14 pm by Annie Roonie »

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2012, 11:44:19 pm »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;49946
Went searching and found the link to the site.

http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/rit_jinx.html


Yup. That is the site that in combination with one painting nailed it for me as the toy I used to play with as a child.

I asked my father about them today and he remembers making them. When we were talking it came to us that there were plastic versions of them sold in drug stores in the cheap-but-fun toy sections with the cap guns, yo-yos and paddle balls.

I'm guessing they went out of fashion due to the abundance of pinched fingers more than the inadvertent magical impact of thousands of little ones unknowingly jinxing all over the place.

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2012, 11:59:02 pm »
Quote from: Annie Roonie;49951
...

 
Yes. I took that trip through the wayback machine link she provided too. Nice! And it gave me places to look further. In looking at several museums I did see the iynx associated with more than just Hekate and read that the dodecahedron might also have been associated with similar theurgic practices as the iynx.

However, I am making the iynx wheel not because of a relationship to Hekate (other than in looking in to her they came back to mind), but because I played with those as a kid. My father made them for me and my sisters. Get them going and they'd pinch a finger good. But entrancing they were and I think as a tool to achieve a kind of meditative state they might be useful. I need to find a square & center for perfect balance.

In any event, I ceased to think that the iynx was the historical justification for that wheel though. And even the dance at Samothrace (which I cannot remember where I read that it was in homage to), is so sketchy that I cannot see a relation there either.  


I have noted your links and will do some reading. w00t! Thank you very much for them and the time you took to share them!


I have been trying for years to find the source for the so called Hecate's Wheel.  Most people cite the passage from the oracles that refers to "Labour about the Hecatick Strophalus" verse 194 as thier source.  Other's seem to think it came from verse 55 "The life producing bosom of Hecate, that living flame which clothes itself in Matter to manifest Existence"  But neither of those work.  Especially when you read passages about them spinning it about their heads as they do the dance.

What gets me though is that the oracles mention Hecat as it is assumed to be Hekate / Hecate now.  Yet it was not that long ago that the belief was that Hekate / Hecate was the transplanted Egyptian Goddess Heket (the Frog Goddess) or an Arcadian elder goddess.  A couple of theories equated her to a Minoan (sp) goddess as well though I do not recall the specifics of that one off the top of my head, except that she might be the later source for the Arcadian goddess.

It's always bothered me that something so many claim to be so important to Hecate / Hekate or associated with should never be found at the oldest and most prestigious of her temples, ie the ruins at Lagina.  Nor has it been discovered at any of the collaterial shrines that have been attributed to her at major temples for other goddesses.  Nor has it ever been found at or upon any Herme's that were dedicated to her at the Cross-roads that I can discover.  Heck I can't even find where it first starts to appear in the modern usage.

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2012, 12:02:47 am »
Quote from: Annie Roonie;49954
Yup. That is the site that in combination with one painting nailed it for me as the toy I used to play with as a child.

I asked my father about them today and he remembers making them. When we were talking it came to us that there were plastic versions of them sold in drug stores in the cheap-but-fun toy sections with the cap guns, yo-yos and paddle balls.

I'm guessing they went out of fashion due to the abundance of pinched fingers more than the inadvertent magical impact of thousands of little ones unknowingly jinxing all over the place.


For me it was the spining toys you used to see.  The biggest I recall was the one that had the bird on one side and the cage on the other.  Then when spun you would see the bird in the cage.  Sort of manifesting what you desired, ie the caged bird in this instance but nearly anything if you could think of it.

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2012, 01:28:07 am »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;49955
I have been trying for years to find the source for the so called Hecate's Wheel.  Most people cite the passage from the oracles that refers to "Labour about the Hecatick Strophalus" verse 194 as thier source.  Other's seem to think it came from verse 55 "The life producing bosom of Hecate, that living flame which clothes itself in Matter to manifest Existence"  But neither of those work.  Especially when you read passages about them spinning it about their heads as they do the dance.

What gets me though is that the oracles mention Hecat as it is assumed to be Hekate / Hecate now.  Yet it was not that long ago that the belief was that Hekate / Hecate was the transplanted Egyptian Goddess Heket (the Frog Goddess) or an Arcadian elder goddess.  A couple of theories equated her to a Minoan (sp) goddess as well though I do not recall the specifics of that one off the top of my head, except that she might be the later source for the Arcadian goddess.

It's always bothered me that something so many claim to be so important to Hecate / Hekate or associated with should never be found at the oldest and most prestigious of her temples, ie the ruins at Lagina.  Nor has it been discovered at any of the collaterial shrines that have been attributed to her at major temples for other goddesses.  Nor has it ever been found at or upon any Herme's that were dedicated to her at the Cross-roads that I can discover.  Heck I can't even find where it first starts to appear in the modern usage.

 
I think Iles Johnston makes an excellent case for Hekate being the inspiration for the Chaldean Hekate especially in the last portion of her book. I have not seen assumptions that they are the same myself.

As far as the wheel goes, regardless of origins, it can, in a very minimalistic way, represent ideas tied to both Hekate and Chaldean Hekate but I think more the latter. And if one applies the lens of the relevance of author's intent, then it more than okay for an individual to choose to identify it however they wish. I wouldn't agree that it was a definitive or ancient historical symbol if someone claimed that, but I would see the symbol as a modern identifier of a likely interest in Hekate.

I understand the urge to want to know about facts though, but I am okay if it persists in mystery and lacks credibility for many due to that. It's like with Hekate being related to Isis in The Golden Ass. Was she? Was she the Frog Goddess? Was she Artemis? I do not know and I'm fine with not knowing. But if information is discovered that would enlighten the subjects, I'd be interested. And I am interested in reading what is already known too.

I care about discrepancies, differences and outright shenanigans but I am not bothered by them inherently more curious. So if it is one day discovered that the wheel is not a symbol at all but say, the grooves made in a foundation stone for a statue to stand on or something practical like that, I would be amused and see it as a symbol even more but differently, and it would then be proven unintentionally confounding which would add a comedic absurdity to it all for me.

However, because Hekate is a part of your religion these things are more personal and I respect that. My lack of a similar intensity is not meant as an offense.



Btw, the Crow pdf had a link in it to this which I am hoping will give some sourcing as to where he came up with the whole Procession wording and all. You've probably already read it!

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2012, 02:00:06 am »
Quote from: Annie Roonie;49960
I think Iles Johnston makes an excellent case for Hekate being the inspiration for the Chaldean Hekate especially in the last portion of her book. I have not seen assumptions that they are the same myself.


I just recently got another copy of that book and reading through it again.  Been years since I last read it and had forgotten how much ancient Greek she used in it when quoting and citing passages.  Having to go back again and look up words to see what they once again mean.

Quote
As far as the wheel goes, regardless of origins, it can, in a very minimalistic way, represent ideas tied to both Hekate and Chaldean Hekate but I think more the latter. And if one applies the lens of the relevance of author's intent, then it more than okay for an individual to choose to identify it however they wish. I wouldn't agree that it was a definitive or ancient historical symbol if someone claimed that, but I would see the symbol as a modern identifier of a likely interest in Hekate.


From my perspective that's the sad part about it, it appears to be a modern identifier that no one can say where it came from.  In many ways reminding me of something I saw in Spain.  People writing about chickens and the word for chicken was pollyo (sp) but whom ever wrote it out didn't actually check to see and wrote Pollya (sp) so instead of saying chicken they were saying penis.  But their argument was they just followed the pack and did the same thing even though in this situation it was wrong.

But hey it looked nice on thier forms and posters, especially when they were telling everyone to come get some "Penis" instead of chicken.  Of course those young guys there were only to willing to help and offered thier services.  Made for an interesting day in town that day.

Quote
I understand the urge to want to know about facts though, but I am okay if it persists in mystery and lacks credibility for many due to that. It's like with Hekate being related to Isis in The Golden Ass. Was she? Was she the Frog Goddess? Was she Artemis? I do not know and I'm fine with not knowing. But if information is discovered that would enlighten the subjects, I'd be interested. And I am interested in reading what is already known too.


Those are the same questions we all ask ourselves.  Just for me if my foundation is built upon falsehoods then so to must my beliefs and spirituality.  Not saying i'll ever know for sure one way or the other but I must keep trying.

Quote
However, because Hekate is a part of your religion these things are more personal and I respect that. My lack of a similar intensity is not meant as an offense.

None seen, taken or being preceived as implied by you from my perspective.

Quote
Btw, the Crow pdf had a link in it to this which I am hoping will give some sourcing as to where he came up with the whole Procession wording and all. You've probably already read it!

Thank you I had.  However, I had lost it so it was a perfect find so I thank you for that.  Darn computer crashes and eating of bookmarks.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 02:02:33 am by monsnoleedra »

Annie Roonie

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Re: Hekate Questions
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2012, 02:57:47 am »
Quote from: monsnoleedra;49963

I must say that I was a good way through reading that link I gave you when things started to hit me a bit wonky. Then I looked at the author and realized I should have done so earlier.

His work is reviewed here.

I was tipped to the dubious nature of his work earlier regarding The Rotting Goddess in that tri-form thread, but it slipped my mind. I apologize for any waste of time it may have caused.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2012, 02:58:30 am by Annie Roonie »

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