Mere Curiosity: What do the Gods do when They aren't Talking with People?

[Kylara]

I think the idea of "spare time" requires that you believe that deities are subject to time (and space) in the same way we are. Which I definitely do not. ;P



If Chaac comes down to embody an idol on my altar during a ritual or prayer, does that mean all weather patterns around the world suddenly dissipate because he's chosen to be here and nowhere else?

IMO, they are in a perpetual state of work, play, possession, and introspection, all at once and in as many places as they deem necessary. But who knows what the Bacabs (who are one and many) might chat about while maybe simultaneously holding up the sky and ruling over the electromagnetic repulsion in every atom in the universe. ;P

I kind of agree with this. As many people as there are, and as many people worship, talk to or otherwise interact with any given deity, it's a wonder there would be any spare time. But also, I have never gotten a "I'm sorry, that deity is busy right now, please try back later" message, which leads me to believe that my deities are perfectly capable of handling not only their regular duties but any number of us human types that might be talking to them at any given moment.

[Lokabrenna]

Basically I think we are what the gods do in their spare time.

Absent

I agree with this. What an interesting question!

[Rhyshadow]

I agree with this. What an interesting question!

I dunno - seems to be too much like "a puppet on a string" to me - I know they watch over me, maybe even give me a nudge every now and then, but to be the side-line project?

Naaa

[Wickerman]

I dunno - seems to be too much like "a puppet on a string" to me - I know they watch over me, maybe even give me a nudge every now and then, but to be the side-line project?

Naaa

There are a lot of different paths represented here. What is right for one may not be right for another. For me the Norse Gods where right for that very reason. According to everything I have ever read about them, they take little or no direct hand in human affairs. That is not to say that they don't hear us, or intervene in times of great need.

[Rhyshadow]

There are a lot of different paths represented here. What is right for one may not be right for another. For me the Norse Gods where right for that very reason. According to everything I have ever read about them, they take little or no direct hand in human affairs. That is not to say that they don't hear us, or intervene in times of great need.

Oh, I know that, I should have added "For me personally"

This is my view on it, not meaning to step on anyone's toes

[Wickerman]

Oh, I know that, I should have added "For me personally"

This is my view on it, not meaning to step on anyone's toes

No toe stepping occurred, I was agreeing with you. The puppet on a string thing bothered me too.

[Elani Temperance]

No toe stepping occurred, I was agreeing with you. The puppet on a string thing bothered me too.

For me, coming from a mostly Greek/Celtic practice, I doubt we are puppets on strings for the Gods. Or a sideline project (and I would disagree respectfully with the wording). In short, I think the Gods have their own lives and an entire planet to worry about but they are close to the humans they have fostered. We provide them with as much as they provide us.

This is the part where I lay down the base of my God-creation myth so stick with me before I get to the puppet-on-a-string bit.

I feel humanity created the Gods. We needed protection, shelter, good hunting and omens so we started our practice of sympathetic magic; I, the shaman, become the deer and let the hunters mock kill me so the spirit of the Deer will understand what needs to happen for me to live. I capitalize 'Deer' because I'm not talking about a single deer but the collective energy (life essence/spirit/etc.) of all deer, overarching into a Deer, capable of understanding the human way of life and its role in it. This Deer evolved out of the will of humans for the spirit of the Deer to understand us. I am not equating magick/witchcraft with Religion here. I think they are two separate paths but they do often meet and for Gods to come into being, there must have been magick involved.

Getting back to it; from this we evolved these animal Gods into human Gods, perhaps one at first, perhaps two (male and female, for male and female issues), perhaps a whole hell of a lot more so we could explain and gain a sense of control over each and every aspect of our lives as animals so very unequipped to deal with this hostile world.

We gave the Gods energy, offerings, nourishment to grow strong and in return, they helped us. While I believe in all Gods-as-individuals, I do feel the primal Gods of our very early ancestors have evolved into the Gods we know now, adapted to our way of life. This is also why I'm not a Reconstructionist, as I feel the Gods are willing to evolve with us. But that is a completely different discussion.

If we stop believing in our Gods, if we don't put in time, effort and offerings, the Gods will fade. They loose their ability to interact with the human world. In my opinion, they don't die, but they grow weak. Not their mythological counterpart and not physically weak but energetically weak. I also believe that the Gods need offerings that are freely given. They can't manipulate us as puppets (see, told you I'd get there) because they need us to act out of free will so they can survive. They help us, entertain themselves with us and sometimes punish us horribly (seriously, horribly) lest we forget who provides a good harvest, but in the end, they need us as much as we need them.

So no, I don't think we are a sideline project. While we may not be at the crux of the Gods' daily lives, They are very aware of us and put great effort into keeping us (collectively, perhaps not individually) happy. They want to survive just as much as we do (although I greatly doubt they think along these terms).

And now, before anyone thinks I have no respect for the Gods; I do. I have the world of respect for the Gods. I have placed my life in Their hands, I have let Them mould me into the shape They needed me to be in. I have done anything and everything I have ever been asked. I try to be a Priestess for Them in every way I can think of. I live their teachings. But I am also a human being who needs to understand and while my reasoning my be completely flawed, it's a reasoning that I have never been divinely punished for having and it has made my faith stronger and my practice more sincere. It has given me a purpose in life and that purpose is to honor the Gods.

[Marilyn/Absentminded]

We provide them with as much as they provide us.

Such as?

I feel humanity created the Gods. We needed protection, shelter, good hunting and omens so we started our practice of sympathetic magic; (cut for space) from this we evolved these animal Gods into human Gods, perhaps one at first, perhaps two (male and female, for male and female issues), perhaps a whole hell of a lot more so we could explain and gain a sense of control over each and every aspect of our lives as animals so very unequipped to deal with this hostile world.

Well, that's a nice little box to keep the gods tame and under control in, anyway.

I, on the other hand, believe that the gods came into being when the universe did and have their own god-stuff to get done before it ends. Some get preoccupied by particular planets or systems, and the 'crazy cat ladies' among them get preoccupied with societies and individuals.

Sometimes they may intervene because of a person's longer-term importance (which is the only time when reward/punishment would come into it - if an individual was of enough importance to implement or wreck a plan that a god had in mind) To lead a human towards or away from a concept or behaviour that a god was too big to get involved in without getting noticed. The same methods as parents, politicians, teachers, and other framers of consciousness use should work for the gods, but particularly stubborn people might need plagues or locusts or rains of fish. Or personal contact, but I think most gods shy away from 'proving' themselves because of the human tendency to first become slavishly devoted, then to start twisting and weaving to get their own agendas into the mix. Better to be subtle.

I don't see it as puppets on a string, but I don't mind if it is. Like anti-government propaganda, I always wonder how many people are actually important enough to be targetted, and how much energy and resources would logically be put into that targetting. If someone steadfastly declines to be useful I think most gods just look for the next candidate. No biggie, unless the god has a vengeful temper. You might as well say that being nice or firm or angry or cuddly with people (or ignoing them) makes them puppets on your own string.

If we stop believing in our Gods, if we don't put in time, effort and offerings, the Gods will fade.

Or just go on to more rewarding projects, tapping a new god to look after their cats.

I also believe that the Gods need offerings that are freely given. They can't manipulate us as puppets (see, told you I'd get there) because they need us to act out of free will so they can survive.

This makes no sense to me. Sure, free will (or at least lip service to it) is important to many of us, but we have no definitive way to tell the difference between this vaunted free will and the simple appearance of it. Do you feel that the gods are bound by a concept when we truly have no way of telling when that concept is adhered to?

So no, I don't think we are a sideline project. While we may not be at the crux of the Gods' daily lives, They are very aware of us and put great effort into keeping us (collectively, perhaps not individually) happy. They want to survive just as much as we do (although I greatly doubt they think along these terms).

Not necessarily a sideline, but not central either. A project that goes along with the design of the universe, but that can be supervised by whoever is up for the job. (giving us a nice variety of gods and mythologies to choose among, but I rather doubt that the people who make it sound like the gods message them on Divine Facebook to arrange hangouts are correctly interpreting their signals.)

And now, before anyone thinks I have no respect for the Gods; I do. I have the world of respect for the Gods. I have placed my life in Their hands, I have let Them mould me into the shape They needed me to be in. I have done anything and everything I have ever been asked. I try to be a Priestess for Them in every way I can think of. I live their teachings. But I am also a human being who needs to understand and while my reasoning my be completely flawed, it's a reasoning that I have never been divinely punished for having and it has made my faith stronger and my practice more sincere. It has given me a purpose in life and that purpose is to honor the Gods.

Not quite my definition of either respect or honour. You seem to want a pocket god who is dependent on your recognition and would never have better things to do than guide your emergence as the best you you can be. I find gods alien but dealable with (there's a saying about the happiest people being the ones who don't draw the gods' personal attention and most myths that stand the test of time seem to reinforce that). There may well be some way of injuring a god (or, as you say, causing it to fade) but I doubt ignoring it will do it. I have the same respect for gods as I do for any other unpredictable wild animal.

YMMV, of course.

Absent

[Elani Temperance]

YMMV, of course.

Absent

Thank you for your reaction, Absent. I'm very happy we all have our own ideas and believes on these subjects. I understand and respect your point of view. I would like to point out that I am in no way looking for a pocket God and think the Gods are in no way dependent on my personal recognition. I have the same healthy respect and fear of the Gods as you seem to have and don't think in the least that the Gods are waiting to serve my (or anyone else's) every whim. I'm sorry you read that in my post as it was never intended that way. Please also not that I said 'gain a sense of control', not 'gain control' over every aspect of nature and life. In no way do I think we consciously created a god of thunder to control thunder; I feel we created a God of thunder to try and gain understanding of the phenomena of thunder and this developed into fully fleshed out beings who developed far from the basic premise on which they were created.

I would also like to note that the Gods, in my opinion, wouldn't be in the least damaged by me turning away from them. The part about fading away (perhaps, indeed on to other, more rewarding projects) was meant to illustrate that I feel this would happen should the entire human race collectively destroy any and all memory of the Gods and would never think of them again.

Also on offers freely given; I derive much of my practice from Greek myth. In these myths the Gods punished those who defied them to get them to show the proper respect but they never just... snapped their fingers and fostered instant respect inside a human being. It was this I was referring to.

I hope I could clarify my point a little, not in any way to change your opinion but to help you gain a better understanding of mine.

[Wickerman]

This is the part where I lay down the base of my God-creation myth so stick with me before I get to the puppet-on-a-string bit.

I feel humanity created the Gods. We needed protection, shelter, good hunting and omens so we started our practice of sympathetic magic; I, the shaman, become the deer and let the hunters mock kill me so the spirit of the Deer will understand what needs to happen for me to live. I capitalize 'Deer' because I'm not talking about a single deer but the collective energy (life essence/spirit/etc.) of all deer, overarching into a Deer, capable of understanding the human way of life and its role in it. This Deer evolved out of the will of humans for the spirit of the Deer to understand us. I am not equating magick/witchcraft with Religion here. I think they are two separate paths but they do often meet and for Gods to come into being, there must have been magick involved.

This reminds me of a discussion that I had on numerous (mostly drunken) occasions in college, with a particular atheist roommate. At the time I was post-christian, but still pre-pagan, I had a sense that we were not alone, but that the christian idea of god was dead wrong. This discussion raged back and forth for many weeks, until one night I brought up a simple scientific principle, matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed but may be changed from one form to another. I further speculated that, that which has always been is god. I haven't gotten to the mankind created the Gods part yet.
Had that initial thing been matter, devoid of energy, it would still be matter devoid of energy. Matter at zero kelvin is inert. So it would have had to have been some combination of matter and energy, or simply energy. Now it is my belief that this initial thing, was a God, but not one that we would ever recognize, primal and simple and very much alien. But for what ever whim from that entity the universe as we know it was born. As man evolved and sought a higher power, a God or Gods, that primal power evolved as well. Over time the pantheon as we know it was born. So in some ways the Gods evolved to meet our needs, but I don't think they were born from our thoughts. I think that the same primal energy that spawned us also spawned them. Yet it was our magic, and our thoughts that shaped them.
Were we in mass to stop worshiping them, then over time they would fade back to that primal alien energy.
Just an old theory of mine, I am not 100% sure that I still believe it. I know that for me the Gods/Goddesses exist, I believe that they need or at least appreciate my worship and my sacrifices, I know that they occasionally intervene in the affairs of man, sometimes on a whim, sometimes because it fits their master plan, and sometimes because they genuinely care for the individual or the situation that they are intervening in.