What's Helpful and What Isn't

[veggiewolf]

There's been a lot of back-and-forth in threads lately about what is helpful to beginners/new Pagans and what isn't. Everyone has an opinion, or seven, and those opinions often clash. So, I thought I'd put the question out in the open where everyone can comment:

If you are a beginner or new to Paganism, what helps you? What doesn't?



If you're more experienced, how do you help beginners (if at all)? How does this clash with the expectations of others?

[Juni]

If you're more experienced, how do you help beginners (if at all)? How does this clash with the expectations of others?

I would encourage beginners to ALWAYS search for their question first. Some people will object- "I can't parse this into a search box"- but everything can be searched, even if you're just using a deity's name or a color or a kind of food. Yes, you will get a lot of irrelevant answers, but it is no one's job to sort through that for you. If you can read, you are fully capable of doing it yourself.

And on that note: read the forums you want to post in. Even threads that don't sound interesting at all. Not only will you become more familiar with the subject in a general way, you will become more familiar with the atmosphere, the people who post, the level of scholarship/UPG, the subjects that keep popping up. Lurking is an important skill for a beginner on any forum.

I would also encourage beginners to stay in the beginner-friendly forums if they can't handle the tenor of conversations they read in other areas. Firstly, TC is a debate and discussion board. Things get heated. Secondly, there are no requirements to hand-hold, to coddle, or to only say something if it's nice. We are human beings- sometimes we are curt, sometimes we are sarcastic, sometimes we're tired of people asking the same shit without searching first. We are entitled to get pissy and have bad days, just like you.

As for how I reach out to beginners- well, I've spearheaded the database project over in the H&O SIG. The searchable resources are for everyone, of course, but I thought having a consolidated area would be useful. It's going to expand at some point, too, to incorporate beginner-friendly information about various Celtic religions, deities, rituals, prayers, etc. And having a single link I can share with newbies will make me far more likely to interact with them, because I have enough stuff of my own to deal with.

[Camylleon]

I would encourage beginners to ALWAYS search for their question first. Some people will object- "I can't parse this into a search box"- but everything can be searched, even if you're just using a deity's name or a color or a kind of food. Yes, you will get a lot of irrelevant answers, but it is no one's job to sort through that for you. If you can read, you are fully capable of doing it yourself.

Here's a strange bit of perspective on this though.

I'm not a newbie in paganism, far from it in fact. But I *am* a newbie in Santeria. Unfortunately, I took German in high school. That might have helped me through Nordic studies but...

Yeah, completely useless in Santeria.

So I come up with two distinct problems. The first is that there is very little information in English and the second is that there is very little decent information at all. I'm fortunate; I've got a wonderful friend who is also involved and is fluent in Spanish. Without her...I wouldn't have been able to stick to it.

I guess my point is that newbies are often insecure. I know I am. I'm constantly running things past my friend for confirmation or denial. And sometimes I'm sure that Wiccan and Pagan newbies would like that as well.

So I guess my point is that just because they're asking thousands of questions doesn't *necessarily* mean they're not doing the research. Of course, there will always be some...

[Tana]

I'm constantly running things past my friend for confirmation or denial.

And this is really a problem, if you are new to whatever (pagandom as a whole, or a certain field). Being new makes it difficult to evaluate the information in the right way.

Knowing someone with the knowledge and experience to give a distinct 'yay' or 'nay' is pretty much priceless.

[Juni]

Here's a strange bit of perspective on this though.

So I come up with two distinct problems. The first is that there is very little information in English and the second is that there is very little decent information at all.

I guess my point is that newbies are often insecure. I know I am. I'm constantly running things past my friend for confirmation or denial. And sometimes I'm sure that Wiccan and Pagan newbies would like that as well.

So I guess my point is that just because they're asking thousands of questions doesn't *necessarily* mean they're not doing the research. Of course, there will always be some...

Oh, I know the feeling. My path draws from Irish Celtic, Hellenic and Kemetic sources. I do not speak Greek, modern or otherwise, nor do I read Kemetic hieroglyphs, or German that Kemetic-based writings are often published in. My French (also for Kemetic stuff) is paltry and my (modern) Irish is laughable. I know the language barrier issue very well.

I know the dearth of information, too, what with being a Celt.

Being insecure in an area that one is new to is completely understandable. It is not an excuse, however, for behaving as though one is entitled to having the answers to their questions laid out in front of them. (A comment that is not directed at you- strictly general.) And having been a member of this forum since 2005, I can tell you that it happens more often than it doesn't.

Not to mention that running information past someone who is more familiar is a different beast than showing up with questions. It shows, for one, at least a modicum of initiative; one has to have gotten the info somewhere to start. Clarifying information and assumptions, and answering questions that derive from that conversation, is to me far preferable to finding yet another post of "what's the answer to this?" and then "oh, and what about this? and this?"

If you're doing the research, it'll show in the question: in the phrasing, in the context. Anyone familiar with a subject can tell when a newbie has been reading and wants clarification or just doesn't understand, and when they simply haven't made the effort to expose themselves.

And more generally, another piece of advice for newbies: if you do have a question- especially a very broad question- for the love of gods give it some context. Tell us why you want to know, what you intend to use the information for. It makes it much easier for us to answer.

[HeartShadow]

There's been a lot of back-and-forth in threads lately about what is helpful to beginners/new Pagans and what isn't. Everyone has an opinion, or seven, and those opinions often clash. So, I thought I'd put the question out in the open where everyone can comment:

If you are a beginner or new to Paganism, what helps you? What doesn't?

If you're more experienced, how do you help beginners (if at all)? How does this clash with the expectations of others?

My religion specifically addresses this, actually - I am to share what I can when I can, but I share what I HAVE, not what someone else WANTS me to have.

So if someone asks a question and the answer I have isn't the one they want, tough. You asked. I am REQUIRED to not bullshit people, even if it's what they want - that's against the Divine.

[Devo]

If you're more experienced, how do you help beginners (if at all)? How does this clash with the expectations of others?

I second just about everything that Juni said.

I hang out mainly in the Kemetic SIG (bad me), and there are a lot of questions that pop up on the various Kemetic boards that I frequent that really could be answered by popping over to google. I understand that when you are new and everything is shiny and wonderful, and it gets overwhelming to the point that you may not consider searching anything. But it gets frustrating when people come and ask me (or post on the forums) about things that are basic to the religion. I had someone talking to me last night, asking for help, and he didn't know what the concept of Ma'at was.

I facepalmed.

It's stuff like that that gets old. I try to maintain my cool, take a step back and realize that not everyone is like me. Not everyone has The Itch, or will think to google or lurk before asking questions. Not everyone reads. So more and more, I try to remain calm and enact the 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'.

As for helping, I have worked on making basic guides for Kemetics. I have worked on providing good information for those who are starting out on the Kemetic path. I also try to do a lot of interfaith work- getting around on all of the Kemetic forums and showing that not all people from X branch are evil, etc. I have no clue if what I'm doing helps or makes a difference, but it's what I can do for now.

-Devo

[SatSekhem]

If you're more experienced, how do you help beginners (if at all)? How does this clash with the expectations of others?

I always try to answer their questions to the best of my ability. And I'm always sure to tell them that when I'm answering, this is based on my viewpoint as a Kemetic, since maybe the beginner isn't following my pathway. I try to be as helpful as possible and point them in the right direction. I don't know, really. I think what I think would help may not always be the case. But, even if the questions are "old" or "redone" I still try to give an answer because what I say in one thread/to one question may not be the same as in another thread/for another question.

[Jenett]

If you're more experienced, how do you help beginners (if at all)? How does this clash with the expectations of others?

I have an essay on my website about asking smart questions (it's inspired by a tech-related essay on the same topic)

http://gleewood.org/seeking/reaching...art-questions/

And to address the "asking for confirmation" - the way to make this be less annoying to the people answering is to say "I've come across material suggesting X and Y. But this bit here, doesn't make sense to me: can someone help me?" (and a link/mention of the source is really helpful here)

It's a *lot* less annoying to answer than someone trying to mine for information to confirm something from another source without telling people where they're starting from. (This is the reason that in the library world, one of our early questions in reference interviews is "where have you already looked?")

On the more general question:

1) I'm a librarian. I like helping people find stuff out. No, really. I do it all the time even when people don't ask.

2) However, I'm a librarian. Work pays for me to help people learn stuff, even when being demanding, or have no idea what they're really looking for or whatever. I am not so obligated to help people on forums. (In-person teaching, I take on additional obligations to a student, even on a casual level.)

I am more inclined to help people on my own time who are some combination of appreciative, interesting, and asking stuff I have not already answered 20 times this week. Making it easy for me to figure out what they're wanting help with is a big bonus.

I am also more likely to take the time to comment if either the answer will be useful to other people reading (either because it's a general topic of interest, or because I have an idea of how to do the specific response that goes beyond that particular answer.) Or, because M'Lady has nudged me to reply, but one should not rely on that when drafting questions. (But really, mostly, when I write a reply, it's because I think it's useful to people beyond the actual person who asked.)

3) That last bit? If you ask a question that's been asked 10 times this week, I may pass it by. Ditto the questions where a little time with Google should solve it.

(If you ask me, however "I've tried Googling this, and I'm having problems." my librarian reflexes will engage, and you will get a "Here's more ways to narrow down search terms and mine the awesome power of the Internet with one hand behind your back" mini-lesson.)

4) Finally, there's a big complicated thing in my head about how part of learning to be part of a new religion is learning how that community works. That's hard work, but it's necessary (and for a variety of reasons, I think it's particularly necessary precursor work in the religious witchcraft religions)

That doesn't mean that a beginner should have people being outright insulting, or rude, or whatever to them. But it does mean that they need to spend some time figuring out how things work

- lurking and reading for a bit before posting a lot (which will also mean they see the stuff that comes up All The Time and can either avoid asking it, or say "Hey, I've read these three other posts about this, but I'm still confused about this part here." which is fundamentally a New Interesting Question for everyone else)

- spending some time figuring out how to ask a question well rather than dashing something off fast.

- doing some work to make connections on their own - whether that's connections between topics as search terms, connections with resources in whatever area, browsing through blogs/websites/etc. of posters whose stuff they like. There are tons of options.

[veggiewolf]

...

If you're more experienced, how do you help beginners (if at all)? How does this clash with the expectations of others?

I should probably answer my own questions.

If I am asked a question, I try to answer to the best of my ability within the set boundaries. I'll explain: there are some things about which I am not supposed to speak. I don't belong to an oathbound tradition, but I have made agreements with Neb.y that some information is not for public consumption. I can live with that.

I do share what information I can freely and willingly. However, I'm of the mindset that people aren't always best served by being led to an objective. In my job, I am more likely to go over a topic once or twice, then provide a tool so someone can learn on his/her own. I'll even offer to watch someone perform a task and offer advice while it is going on, but I've learned that my jumping in to fix things can have negative consequences on the learning process.

I'll also admit that *I* appreciate feedback if I ask the wrong question, and by wrong I mean either misworded or "not appropriate for where I am currently". Since I appreciate it, I tend to assume others appreciate the same feedback. Case in point: when someone new to paganism asks about finding a patron, I'm likely to respond with the feedback that finding a patron isn't necessary and to ask a bunch of questions about said person's beliefs, interests, etc.