Author Topic: triform goddess(es) or not? (Read 2695 times)

spoOk · « **on:** March 24, 2012, 05:23:29 pm »

ok,when I look up stuff on certain deitys I find lots of mentions of goddesses that come in threes,or the whol triform goddesses or maiden mother crone etc.
then from most folks UPG they say they do not get a three entity vibe and only a one being feeling. or historically the deity was not part of a trio or any kind of triform being, but later it became that way.
so I have kinda a few questions.
is there a right or wrong when it comes to this?
is it a matter of what feels to me to be a Wiccan started construct.?
what do YOU do,those who work with a deity that falls into this category?
is it maybe more a mind set? one deity who has several facets?
do some of you go with the more older forms or the more 'popular' forms or even just stick with the traditional form to your path?
do you worship in a triple format but ever feel its incorrect?
for the record...I deal with hekate and do not ascribe to the maiden mother crone thingy.
I view her and feel from her a strictly single being vibe and a young looking but ageless view as well.
I am also not coming from a Wiccan or feminism background either.

SkySamuelle · « **Reply #1 on:** March 24, 2012, 05:31:04 pm »

Quote from: spoOk;47173

ok,when I look up stuff on certain deitys I find lots of mentions of goddesses that come in threes,or the whol triform goddesses or maiden mother crone etc.
then from most folks UPG they say they do not get a three entity vibe and only a one being feeling. or historically the deity was not part of a trio or any kind of triform being, but later it became that way.
so I have kinda a few questions.
is there a right or wrong when it comes to this?
is it a matter of what feels to me to be a Wiccan started construct.?
what do YOU do,those who work with a deity that falls into this category?
is it maybe more a mind set? one deity who has several facets?
do some of you go with the more older forms or the more 'popular' forms or even just stick with the traditional form to your path?
do you worship in a triple format but ever feel its incorrect?
for the record...I deal with hekate and do not ascribe to the maiden mother crone thingy.
I view her and feel from her a strictly single being vibe and a young looking but ageless view as well.
I am also not coming from a Wiccan or feminism background either.

Same feeling about Hekate- She comes to me as a young, adult woman and that's it.

The Morrigan, I started to have contact with very recently, felt pretty much as a single entity as well, but it may or may not be too soon to tell.

monsnoleedra · « **Reply #2 on:** March 24, 2012, 05:51:32 pm »

Quote from: spoOk;47173

.. is there a right or wrong when it comes to this?
is it a matter of what feels to me to be a Wiccan started construct.?
what do YOU do,those who work with a deity that falls into this category?
is it maybe more a mind set? one deity who has several facets?
do some of you go with the more older forms or the more 'popular' forms or even just stick with the traditional form to your path?
do you worship in a triple format but ever feel its incorrect?
for the record...I deal with hekate and do not ascribe to the maiden mother crone thingy.
I view her and feel from her a strictly single being vibe and a young looking but ageless view as well.
I am also not coming from a Wiccan or feminism background either.

For the record I am sworn and honor bound to Hekate / Hecate as one of my goddess. As such I do see her in a tri-formus capacity but that is strickly do to her holding dominion over Heaven, Ocean (sea's) and Earth. I admit I despise the association of her to the Mother, Maiden and Crone foundation. When I do comtemplate a MMC persona Hekate is almost always the Maiden, Persephonie is the Mother and Demeter is the Crone facet though I do not agree with that whole MMC thing. I seldom see or recognize her in the Selene (Luna) - Artemis (Diana) - Hekate / Hecate moon associations, though I do at times see her in a Artemis-Hekate / Hecate role where she is associated to the wilderness and acts in a fashion similar to Artemis. Inversely I also see Hekate-Artemis in the role where Artemis is associated to cross-roads or boundary areas and is seen as acting like Hekate / Hecate.

When I speak to her or call upon her I always see her in three persona's and reflect upon which form I wish to deal with. As a Sailor I always see her in her capacity as holding sway over the Oceans though I mostly saw it in affect / effect to coastal waters for instance. In many ways I see her like the tri-formus pillar statuaries one finds of her. As such I can step to either side and speak to another facet or she can turn so I face the apperance most appropriate to my need. The thing here being of importance to me is that the face never changes nor does the age of each persona all that really changes is the drapery that adorns her body.

As such when I speak to the Ocean / Seas persona I always see her in greens, browns and blues. An imagery of seaweed and other shallow water creatures cling to her or adorn her. In her chthonic persona its snakes, smoke and earthly smells. Her drapery more browns, blacks with occasional deep greens with the occasional smell of dogs. Her heavenly or celestrial persona is always that of the shinnign or illuminated one. Her hair a silver or golden hue though that could also be the illuminations about her. She is always sort of airy and her drapery again reflects light blues, whites, silvers, gold type hues. Yet regardless of which persona she is always adorned in a full chiton without the maidens knott and her footwear is more like that of a persian woman than the sandle type footwear I see Artemis wear.

When I make offerings or libations to her I utilize a altar based upon which facet I wish to deal with. Thus in her capacity as a chthonic goddess I make my fire in a depression and pour libations upon the ground. As her Ocean / Sea roll I make them upon the water or upon the shore line of a watery body. In her celestial persona I make them upon a raised altar or consume them via flame and see them transformed or transmuted via fire.

catja6 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 24, 2012, 06:12:19 pm »

Quote from: spoOk;47173

ok,when I look up stuff on certain deitys I find lots of mentions of goddesses that come in threes,or the whol triform goddesses or maiden mother crone etc.

Hekate was often, though not always, represented in ancient Greece and Rome as triform; like Hermes, she's a deity of the crossroads (three-way instead of four-way though). In some Greco-Egyptian magical papyri, she's said to be triform with various animal heads (dog, snake, boar, etc). In statuary where she's depicted triform, it's almost always as three young women. I have seen one Hellenistic household idol where she was depicted in young/middle-aged/elderly form (it was in the Archaeological Museum of Rhodes), which according to the museum card was linked to the phases of the moon, but that's a late and unusual example. But the Maiden/Mother/Crone paradigm, with Hekate in the crone role, is a modern invention. That doesn't mean that it's stupid or irrelevant or that it's ~wrong to approach Hekate that way, just that it's not how she was understood in the ancient world.

Nyktelios · « **Reply #4 on:** March 24, 2012, 07:29:28 pm »

Quote from: spoOk;47173

ok,when I look up stuff on certain deitys I find lots of mentions of goddesses that come in threes,or the whol triform goddesses or maiden mother crone etc.
then from most folks UPG they say they do not get a three entity vibe and only a one being feeling. or historically the deity was not part of a trio or any kind of triform being, but later it became that way.
so I have kinda a few questions.
is there a right or wrong when it comes to this?
is it a matter of what feels to me to be a Wiccan started construct.?
what do YOU do,those who work with a deity that falls into this category?
is it maybe more a mind set? one deity who has several facets?
do some of you go with the more older forms or the more 'popular' forms or even just stick with the traditional form to your path?
do you worship in a triple format but ever feel its incorrect?
for the record...I deal with hekate and do not ascribe to the maiden mother crone thingy.
I view her and feel from her a strictly single being vibe and a young looking but ageless view as well.
I am also not coming from a Wiccan or feminism background either.

For some deities, it can work. For many, the triple maiden-mother-crone thing doesn't really fit. Hera, for example, was worshiped as Pais (child/maiden), Teleia (fulfilled/adult), and Khera (solitary/widow), and Carl Kerenyi suggests each of the three aspects could relate to the phases of the moon. Hekate, like others have said, was represented with three forms, but she was usually portrayed as a young maiden, a virgin girl similar to Artemis.

Auress · « **Reply #5 on:** March 24, 2012, 07:58:51 pm »

Quote from: spoOk;47173

ok,when I look up stuff on certain deitys I find lots of mentions of goddesses that come in threes,or the whol triform goddesses or maiden mother crone etc.
then from most folks UPG they say they do not get a three entity vibe and only a one being feeling. or historically the deity was not part of a trio or any kind of triform being, but later it became that way.
so I have kinda a few questions.
is there a right or wrong when it comes to this?
is it a matter of what feels to me to be a Wiccan started construct.?
what do YOU do,those who work with a deity that falls into this category?
is it maybe more a mind set? one deity who has several facets?
do some of you go with the more older forms or the more 'popular' forms or even just stick with the traditional form to your path?
do you worship in a triple format but ever feel its incorrect?
for the record...I deal with hekate and do not ascribe to the maiden mother crone thingy.
I view her and feel from her a strictly single being vibe and a young looking but ageless view as well.
I am also not coming from a Wiccan or feminism background either.

I hadn't started working with deities until the last 4 years or so, but I've never gotten a triple goddess feel from any of the ones that are typically seen that way, I see them as one aspect.

Most people will argue that Hekate is not a crone Goddess, however, I definitely get a "mature" woman vibe from her no matter which things I read, etc. Many will also argue that Hekate is not a triple deity, I would agree with that.

I think the deities appear to each person in the aspects they will relate to at the time, which is part of why I believe them to be aspects of the Divine, and not separate entities. UPG is why.

Annie Roonie · « **Reply #6 on:** March 24, 2012, 08:09:41 pm »

Quote from: catja6;47185

Hekate was often, though not always, represented in ancient Greece and Rome as triform; like Hermes, she's a deity of the crossroads (three-way instead of four-way though). In some Greco-Egyptian magical papyri, she's said to be triform with various animal heads (dog, snake, boar, etc). In statuary where she's depicted triform, it's almost always as three young women. I have seen one Hellenistic household idol where she was depicted in young/middle-aged/elderly form (it was in the Archaeological Museum of Rhodes), which according to the museum card was linked to the phases of the moon, but that's a late and unusual example. But the Maiden/Mother/Crone paradigm, with Hekate in the crone role, is a modern invention. That doesn't mean that it's stupid or irrelevant or that it's ~wrong to approach Hekate that way, just that it's not how she was understood in the ancient world.

Can you recommend any books about Hekate that might be useful in understanding how she was viewed, worshipped or represented in the ancient world?

I have already read Hekate Soteira and have ordered Robert Von Rudolf's book and while I wait for it to arrive, I've been reading the Chaldean Oracles. I have Theogeny and it is slated for beach reading, But I want to know if there are other good places to look for scholarly material about her. (I've been around the web quite a bit already but may have missed something.)

I am attempting to learn some older Greek. I found a primer for learning New Testament Greek and thought it might work well should I find some material that is not translated or has, like Iles Johnston's book, much Greek in it. Though I wonder if that is worth the time for the purpose. (Though it is such a pretty language to see, I may have to learn it regardless.) Do you think that is worth the while for gaining a better understanding of Hekate?

I've directed these question to you, Catja6 as you seem very knowledgeable; however, if anyone else has suggestions or answers, I'd be appreciative!

As for the OP, sorry to hijack a bit with my own questions! But for yours, I have come late to the modern discussion of her triform misrepresentation or new representation so I have not given it much consideration. However, since I have been drawn to this goddess, I have not perceived her as anything but one age.

Her tri-form in addition to her being in the roads and of three domains, seems to be also and maybe more representative of her chosen roles/jobs and perhaps even more of her abilities to comprehend and act in Time. Humans for the most part only being able to access the present intellectually may likely perceive an entity which exists without that limitation as being able to see in the other directions of Time we understand but do not have access to in the same way. Those being the future and the past of course. If she is extant in all three it makes sense that she would be triform and of the same age in each. In any event, I have been perceiving her that way as well, as one.

I do wonder, after reading the Iles Johnston book, if there is yet more than these three time strands, and if Hekate's triform is more reflective of a limited human projection and understanding of Time. I have fancied that her triform is a frozen image of a whirling thing that may be beyond my ability to comprehend wholly while moving.

I am not forgetting her dominions and seek ways to understand her by being in commune with earth, the sky and the sea and certainly there is a good match for the triform, but it is also understandable to me that she should carry fire/intellect and direct it. I've wondered if she is intellect/fire and that is why her triform was necessary to represent the others.

Currently, I am fascinated by the iynges and the one iynx she has been portrayed as holding. They are, of course, the reason I feel she might also be a whirling thing. It may be silly, but I feel compelled to make one. As if using it will help me to understand her better.

monsnoleedra · « **Reply #7 on:** March 24, 2012, 08:44:37 pm »

Quote from: Annie Roonie;47238

Can you recommend any books about Hekate that might be useful in understanding how she was viewed, worshipped or represented in the ancient world?..

One site you might like is http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/ it has a number of translations of various documents and older written works. I've found quite a bit of useful info on a number of gods / goddess.

Annie Roonie · « **Reply #8 on:** March 24, 2012, 08:47:12 pm »

Quote from: monsnoleedra;47241

One site you might like is http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/ it has a number of translations of various documents and older written works. I've found quite a bit of useful info on a number of gods / goddess.

YAY! I know where I am going tonight! THANK YOU!

SkySamuelle · « **Reply #9 on:** March 24, 2012, 08:49:12 pm »

Quote from: Annie Roonie;47238

Can you recommend any books about Hekate that might be useful in understanding how she was viewed, worshipped or represented in the ancient world?

I have already read Hekate Soteira and have ordered Robert Von Rudolf's book and while I wait for it to arrive, I've been reading the Chaldean Oracles. I have Theogeny and it is slated for beach reading, But I want to know if there are other good places to look for scholarly material about her. (I've been around the web quite a bit already but may have missed something.)

I am attempting to learn some older Greek. I found a primer for learning New Testament Greek and thought it might work well should I find some material that is not translated or has, like Iles Johnston's book, much Greek in it. Though I wonder if that is worth the time for the purpose. (Though it is such a pretty language to see, I may have to learn it regardless.) Do you think that is worth the while for gaining a better understanding of Hekate?

I've directed these question to you, Catja6 as you seem very knowledgeable; however, if anyone else has suggestions or answers, I'd be appreciative!

As for the OP, sorry to hijack a bit with my own questions! But for yours, I have come late to the modern discussion of her triform misrepresentation or new representation so I have not given it much consideration. However, since I have been drawn to this goddess, I have not perceived her as anything but one age.

Her tri-form in addition to her being in the roads and of three domains, seems to be also and maybe more representative of her chosen roles/jobs and perhaps even more of her abilities to comprehend and act in Time. Humans for the most part only being able to access the present intellectually may likely perceive an entity which exists without that limitation as being able to see in the other directions of Time we understand but do not have access to in the same way. Those being the future and the past of course. If she is extant in all three it makes sense that she would be triform and of the same age in each. In any event, I have been perceiving her that way as well, as one.

I do wonder, after reading the Iles Johnston book, if there is yet more than these three time strands, and if Hekate's triform is more reflective of a limited human projection and understanding of Time. I have fancied that her triform is a frozen image of a whirling thing that may be beyond my ability to comprehend wholly while moving.

I am not forgetting her dominions and seek ways to understand her by being in commune with earth, the sky and the sea and certainly there is a good match for the triform, but it is also understandable to me that she should carry fire/intellect and direct it. I've wondered if she is intellect/fire and that is why her triform was necessary to represent the others.

Currently, I am fascinated by the iynges and the one iynx she has been portrayed as holding. They are, of course, the reason I feel she might also be a whirling thing. It may be silly, but I feel compelled to make one. As if using it will help me to understand her better.

You may find useful 'Hekate Liminal Rites' by Sorita d’Este & David Rankine, it examines various historical resources for the study of the rituals, magic and symbols of this goddess. Personally I loved the Her Sacred Fires anthology as well - while it's a collection of essays and artwork by devotees of Hekate, it has an useful 'timeline' of all the findings related to Hekate's cult.

catja6 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 24, 2012, 08:55:55 pm »

Quote from: Annie Roonie;47238

Can you recommend any books about Hekate that might be useful in understanding how she was viewed, worshipped or represented in the ancient world?

Since you've read Hekate Soteira, your best bets are Johnston's other book The Restless Dead, and the more recent scholarship on Greek and Roman magic and magico-religious practices (Hekate was the goddess most often invoked in magic); Johnston and Daniel Ogden are great, as is the Ankarloo and Clark-edited Witchcraft and Magic in Europe, Volume 2: Ancient Greece and Rome. The Von Rudloff and Rabinovich (The Rotting Goddess) books are almost universally panned, so read the Von Rudloff with a GIANT salt-shaker. Sorita d'Este also has a book on Hekate, but IIRC there was evidence that she had lifted a bunch of that material without proper citation and accreditation.

Annie Roonie · « **Reply #11 on:** March 24, 2012, 09:47:40 pm »

Quote from: catja6;47246

Since you've read Hekate Soteira, your best bets are Johnston's other book The Restless Dead, and the more recent scholarship on Greek and Roman magic and magico-religious practices (Hekate was the goddess most often invoked in magic); Johnston and Daniel Ogden are great, as is the Ankarloo and Clark-edited Witchcraft and Magic in Europe, Volume 2: Ancient Greece and Rome. The Von Rudloff and Rabinovich (The Rotting Goddess) books are almost universally panned, so read the Von Rudloff with a GIANT salt-shaker. Sorita d'Este also has a book on Hekate, but IIRC there was evidence that she had lifted a bunch of that material without proper citation and accreditation.

Noted about the Von Rudolf. I have his Hekate in Ancient Greek Religion arriving soon, will add salt. And will copy/past these to my to-get & read list. Many thanks!

monsnoleedra · « **Reply #12 on:** March 24, 2012, 09:59:16 pm »

Quote from: catja6;47246

Since you've read Hekate Soteira, your best bets are Johnston's other book The Restless Dead, and the more recent scholarship on Greek and Roman magic and magico-religious practices (Hekate was the goddess most often invoked in magic); Johnston and Daniel Ogden are great, as is the Ankarloo and Clark-edited Witchcraft and Magic in Europe, Volume 2: Ancient Greece and Rome. The Von Rudloff and Rabinovich (The Rotting Goddess) books are almost universally panned, so read the Von Rudloff with a GIANT salt-shaker. Sorita d'Este also has a book on Hekate, but IIRC there was evidence that she had lifted a bunch of that material without proper citation and accreditation.

Bold Mine. Sorita d'Este has two books out on Hekate, one titled Liminal Rites which is the one I think your refering to. It had quite a bit of info but many area's were pretty sparce on sources. She has a second book out, Hekate: Keys to the Crossroads but that one seems more aligned to stories and tales by modern practitioners.

There is a book titled THE GODDESS HEKATE, studies in ancient pagan and Christian religion & Philosophy vol 1. published by Hastings CHTHONIOS BOOKS 1992, edited by Stephen Ronan that is really good. It's divided into 8 sections with items written by J. E. Lowe, L. R. Farnell, K. F. Smith, S. Ronan and E. Rohde

Curse Tablets and Binding Speels from the Ancient World, published by Oxford University Press (1992) is also pretty good and discusses aspects of Hekate and curse tablets. If I recall correctly that one is available for download via google books.

There is a e-book titled HECATE"S WOMB (and other essays) that you'll come across in nearlly any search but I really would not recommend it. It has some interesting perspectives on Hecate but its not traditional in most senses.

If you can find it there is a book titled GENDER and IMMORTALITY by Deborah Lyons that is really a good read. It's not strickly about any specific goddess touches upon a number of them. http://press.princeton.edu/books/lyons/

spoOk · « **Reply #13 on:** March 24, 2012, 10:07:12 pm »

Quote from: monsnoleedra;47258

Bold Mine. Sorita d'Este has two books out on Hekate, one titled Liminal Rites which is the one I think your refering to. It had quite a bit of info but many area's were pretty sparce on sources. She has a second book out, Hekate: Keys to the Crossroads but that one seems more aligned to stories and tales by modern practitioners.

There is a book titled THE GODDESS HEKATE, studies in ancient pagan and Christian religion & Philosophy vol 1. published by Hastings CHTHONIOS BOOKS 1992, edited by Stephen Ronan that is really good. It's divided into 8 sections with items written by J. E. Lowe, L. R. Farnell, K. F. Smith, S. Ronan and E. Rohde

Curse Tablets and Binding Speels from the Ancient World, published by Oxford University Press (1992) is also pretty good and discusses aspects of Hekate and curse tablets. If I recall correctly that one is available for download via google books.

There is a e-book titled HECATE"S WOMB (and other essays) that you'll come across in nearlly any search but I really would not recommend it. It has some interesting perspectives on Hecate but its not traditional in most senses.

If you can find it there is a book titled GENDER and IMMORTALITY by Deborah Lyons that is really a good read. It's not strickly about any specific goddess touches upon a number of them. http://press.princeton.edu/books/lyons/

ok we've gotten onto a tangent about hekate but i was of the understanding there were more than just the hekate trilogy.....
isn't there one for the Morrigan and another Celtic themed one?
is the Celtic one simply a Wiccan construct?
or some folks trying to make deitys fit a MMC format for this whole phases of the moon thing?

monsnoleedra · « **Reply #14 on:** March 24, 2012, 10:21:02 pm »

Quote from: spoOk;47262

ok we've gotten onto a tangent about hekate but i was of the understanding there were more than just the hekate trilogy.....
isn't there one for the Morrigan and another Celtic themed one?
is the Celtic one simply a Wiccan construct?
or some folks trying to make deitys fit a MMC format for this whole phases of the moon thing?

I really do not know enough about that one to even speak on it. The most I do know is in some references it appears she (Morrigan) is three seperate goddess united as one or three aspects.

The moon aspects I've seen never really paint a MMC scenario but deal with aspects of the moon and period of influences. It's sort of like the trilogy of Selene (Moon herself) - Artemis (Full or New Moon) and Hekate / Hecate (Dark Moon period). Yet as I said they are not really MMC but point to the points of greatest influence and presence. It could be equated to the Roman trilogy of Luna (Moon) - Diana (New or Full Moon) - Hecate / Hekate (Dark of the Moon - especially abt the 29th of each month) (or Tri-Formus who may be a goddess who became associated to Hekate / Hecate).

Of course touching upon Hekate / Hecate that doesn't touch upon the Hekat from the Chaldean oracles (who may or may not be Hekate / Hecate who is found at Lagina in modern Turkey) or the Egyptian Frog Goddess (Sorry don't recall her exact name but its something like (He-Kat) that at one time was considered the source of Hekate / Hecate.

The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

News:

Recent Posts

Author Topic: triform goddess(es) or not? (Read 2695 times)

spoOk

triform goddess(es) or not?

SkySamuelle

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

monsnoleedra

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

catja6

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

Nyktelios

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

Auress

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

Annie Roonie

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

monsnoleedra

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

Annie Roonie

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

SkySamuelle

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

catja6

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

Annie Roonie

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

monsnoleedra

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

spoOk

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

monsnoleedra

Re: triform goddess(es) or not?

Related Topics

Who's Online

Please Donate!

Shop & Support TC

In Memoriam

Cauldron Staff