Mentoring and Guiding

[dragonfaerie]

Through the course of my online interactions in the Pagan community over the last 15+ years, as well as the interfaith work I've started doing in some of my other hobby groups, and dealing with close friends becoming interested in Wicca, I've noticed a trend that I don't think we've discussed here...

How much should one mentor/guide a newbie? And how much should they be encouraged/forced to figure out on their own?

I started learning about Wicca on my own, and have a spiritual teacher who leads me to ideas to explore and then leaves me to get to it. I've not really taken any sort of "traditional" classes on Wicca where one is spoon-fed a course of information.

And maybe that's the crux of things for me... how much one should expect to be spoon-fed when they are, in essence, striking out on a path to find a new faith. Is it a culture-shift, that folks expect the proper information to always be available under their fingertips if they have the right keywords?

So what do you think? How should seekers and students be approached? Is using a Socratic-type method still valuable today? Or should we just give up and give them whatever tidbits of info they want so they don't just google it and get 15 dubious answers?

Karen

[Marilyn/Absentminded]

People use the term 'spoon-feeding' with contempt, but I've never quite understood why or exactly what they mean when they do. We are sppon-fed as babies/beginners, then given knives and forks or chopsticks or whatever our culture uses. We are instructed in the utensils' uses and let to practice. We learn to use the same implements in cooking, along with a few more we pick up (and generally get shown how to use) along the way.

Eventually we have learned to prepare, cook, and feed food to ourselves and others. There may be questions out of order, or that make sense with later information, but I'm unaware of anybody advocating a refusal to answer them on the grounds that asking and listening isn't learning.

Is this method wrong in other areas, or am I not understanding a specific alternate application of the term?

Absent

[Marilyn/Absentminded]

Mind, I have recipes I have no intention of sharing until after I'm dead, no matter who asks.

Absent

[dragonfaerie]

People use the term 'spoon-feeding' with contempt, but I've never quite understood why or exactly what they mean when they do.

Well generally, it refers to people who could do for themselves but prefer to let someone else do the heavy lifting.

In respects to my post... well, specifically I get tired of folks who are looking for all the mystical secrets of a path in one book/teacher/web site/message board/workshop, etc. They want to learn it all! Now! Without the introspection, research, and trial-and-error that's involved in crafting your own personal spirituality.

And I get tired of the implication that now that I've learned enough to be a teacher and pass on knowledge, that I have to dispense it in easily-digestible soundbites so a seeker doesn't have to actually think about anything, just parrot back what I said.

My own teacher did not do such things with me, and I feel that I'm the stronger Pagan for it... I've learned to think critically and draw my own conclusions, to introspect and deal with my "shadow self", etc.

But I do wonder if that sort of Socratic, lead the student to the pond and let them figure out how to make sure the water's safe to drink while watching them discreetly so they don't drown method is still valid with today's learning climate, or if spoon-feeding information to folks is what's preferred... so they don't learn how to use chopsticks or cook... they just continue to feed off that jar of pureed peas.

Make better sense? Or am I mixing too many metaphors? I'm getting hungry, so anything's possible in this brain...

Karen

[Rhyshadow]

Well generally, it refers to people who could do for themselves but prefer to let someone else do the heavy lifting.


And I get tired of the implication that now that I've learned enough to be a teacher and pass on knowledge, that I have to dispense it in easily-digestible soundbites so a seeker doesn't have to actually think about anything, just parrot back what I said.

My own teacher did not do such things with me, and I feel that I'm the stronger Pagan for it... I've learned to think critically and draw my own conclusions, to introspect and deal with my "shadow self", etc.

But I do wonder if that sort of Socratic, lead the student to the pond and let them figure out how to make sure the water's safe to drink while watching them discreetly so they don't drown method is still valid with today's learning climate, or if spoon-feeding information to folks is what's preferred... so they don't learn how to use chopsticks or cook... they just continue to feed off that jar of pureed peas.



Make better sense? Or am I mixing too many metaphors? I'm getting hungry, so anything's possible in this brain...

Karen

I went through the same thing myself, then when I started teaching I found out that the newbies wanted everything handed to them on a platter. Each class-session I taught had a little quiz at the end. You could NOT go through notes or even books to find the answers as they were designed to be introspective. Of over a dozen students I had, only 3 ever completed all the quizes - the rest thought them too hard.

So I'd have to say that the ones who ARE willing to work for it are becoming less-and-less frequent. And it's a sad thing, really

[Marilyn/Absentminded]

Too many thoughts at once here - apparently this has got me thinking, which is always a mistake.

I just had a thought of the baby being fed with a spoon - at that stage you don't turn on the gas cooker for him even if he points and grunts. I would teach him how eventually, though, in preference to using whether he can figure it out himself as a guide to whether he is capable of learning more.

Absent

[HeartShadow]

I give what I choose to give. If that's not what people want, they can go elsewhere.

I am under obligation to my gods to make information accessable and comprehensible. After that, it's up to you.

I will help someone that honestly needs help to the best of my abilities. But I refuse to be an answerbot. That's what google is for.

[Cannaid]

I give what I choose to give. If that's not what people want, they can go elsewhere.

I am under obligation to my gods to make information accessable and comprehensible. After that, it's up to you.

I will help someone that honestly needs help to the best of my abilities. But I refuse to be an answerbot. That's what google is for.

Yes!

I find myself feeling somewhat in despair when I think on students and the common approach to learning that many of them have. I have had several "students" approach me for information and teachings. I will sit with them for awhile and offer a few references for them to read. I then suggest that they come back to me and we will discuss. Not once (except very recently) have I heard from them again. I stopped giving them my copies and suggest an inexpensive source to purchase them from.

As a teacher it is my responsibility to "facilitate" the process. I took an oath to do this. I can only do that if they do the work. We enter into a reciprocal relationship and if they are truely called to faith and spiritual growth then they welcome the work. If not, then there is google for them.

[monsnoleedra]

.. How much should one mentor/guide a newbie? And how much should they be encouraged/forced to figure out on their own? ..

I am very mixed on this issue.

I was raised in a family tradition where we had "goals" laid out but if all we ever aimed for was that goal we never got far. Inversely, those who only aimed for the goals were also pushed to the back of the room so to speak by our elders. Pretty much driven by the idea that if you were only going to put minimum effort into it then that was all they were going to give you in return.

That same mentatily seemed to apply in every school I ever attended from first grade right up to the point where I earned my BA. If you did the minimum then you got the minimum in education and attention. Yet if you pushed beyond then you were guided and encouraged every step of the way. Even to the point where the teacher / instructor arrived when needed to encourage you along the way.

I recall a geology class in college where the professor wrote 6 names on the board before handing back our research papers. I was one of the five and worried sick that I had done something wrong. Yet the names listed were the papers he wished to keep because of the topics and degree of scholary work that went into them. My paper being on the eruption of Krakatoa though more so from an analysis of the magma type and mineral composition at that fault line. Yet in reflection it reminded me of my government class my senior year where my teacher praised a few of us for our subject selected before the class. In that instance my paper was on the Trial of Aaron Burr for treason which greatly differed from the average who wrote about George Washington for instance.

The point of that being that when encouraged and coupled to our own drives to learn we always were rewarded for our efforts. Yet while the acknowledgement was fine it never matched the internal sense of success and accomplishment I got from it and the challenge it created for me to do so.

I noticed to that when I was an instructor / teacher I tended to gravitate towards those students who really went out of their way to learn. Yet the thing here was it didn't matter if they suceeded but that they tried as hard as they could to succeed. My time, energy and focus freely given to those and support probably more so for those who were failing but trying. I suppose in some ways a bit of contempt for those who just did the bare minimum as I saw many times a great waste of potential.

Over the years in the pagan community I have taken students who I was very proud of. Show them how to lay a ceremonial fire for instance and they take that and go on to discover so many facets of the fire element itself. Advancing to the point where the student does eventually become the teacher and the teacher the student as they move forward. Yet the critical facet always ones own internal drive to succeed.

Yet perhaps that to an indicator or reason for the many tests and obsticles one places before they take a person on as a student. To show they are willing to place the time and effort in to get to the end what ever it might be, ie lesson, pathway, concept or idea.

Yet when one looks to the net that all goes away. You spend time and dedication of action and effort but can never tell if your student will succeed. You can't even really tell if they put forth the time and dedication to it that a student in real life and before you would. Yet to be the guide / mentor still requires the same amount of dedication and attention to lessons and such for the teacher.

I think to the fact that most pagan pathways are still mystical trails and require the student to undergo much soul searching and comptemplation to discover the mystery facet of things. As a guide / mentor / teacher I can instill or provide the academic and practical application of material but I can not provide the mystical side of things when they stand alone beneath the moon or where ever as the "Light Bulb" come on for them.

Yet far to many I have encountered and been asked to teach want you to side step all that academic and pratical application of material and give them the Light Bulb right off the bat. Yet fail to realize even if you could it wouldn't matter for they missed the building blocks that support and enable the light bulb to ignite.

For me today I am under no contract or obligation to provide, instill or guide anyone upon any trail or track. To make the assumption that I am because of my age or experience many times to me will close the door due to that assumption on thier part. About the only obligation I have is to my self and to my gods / goddesses and the things they desire and require of me and for them.

So basically I may not be willing to teach you to become a shamanic practitioner or hedge / green witchcraft practitioner but I will speak up when it deals with my gods / goddesses. Especially so if I think it mis-information one is speaking in regards to them. That's not to say I won't take part in exchanges dealing with given applications of material or concepts but not as a guide / mentor and the commitments those terms imply between teacehr and student.

Hopefully this answered the question as it got sort of long winded, if not well then all I can say is ask for clarrification of a point or idea.

[Jenett]

How much should one mentor/guide a newbie? And how much should they be encouraged/forced to figure out on their own?

For me, it depends a great deal on context.

I really enjoy Seeker-level education work. And in that context, I'm fairly willing (my own time/energy/other commitments allowing) to break it down into small pieces, and user-friendly modules.

I won't generally cover stuff that Google does better. And I generally focus on the stuff where answering the question is not only useful to that person, but to other readers/listeners (which means that if time is short, I'm more likely to go to general approaches than specific needs that only work for one person.)

My take when I'm talking to someone who is contemplating initiatory work, however, is a lot different. If someone is interested in my trad - and particularly if they're interested in me teaching them my trad, well, in that case, they have to demonstrate that they're willing and able to do work that may not have an immediate and obvious connection to what they really want to learn right now.

I work really hard to make sure that what I teach is useful and important and necessary. But sometimes it's laying the framework for something six months, or years in the future. And there's some stuff - like any trad - where it's a collaboration with other people, and I teach it because it's important to others in the trad, even though it's not My Thing, really.

But anyway. There, a lot less spoon-feeding. And a lot less "Here, let me convince you of why this thing is necessary and awesome and interesting."

I want to do that work with people who can generally manage their own motivation and conversation about what's going on for them, and what's easy and what's hard, and what's confusing.