Graveyard dirt

[Marilyn/Absentminded]

wishful thinking based upon death energies and death based magics.

Well, of course it wouldn't work for you then. I have little to no effectiveness with types of magic I sneer at, either.

I doubt there is any form, method, or framework of magic that isn't sneered at by someone as wishful thinking, though. It's mostly a matter of using it anyway. I am particularly fond of doggerel and dioramas, myself.

Absent

[ZombyFrogg]

Well, of course it wouldn't work for you then. I have little to no effectiveness with types of magic I sneer at, either.

Absent

Thanks for that...

[monsnoleedra]

Well, of course it wouldn't work for you then. I have little to no effectiveness with types of magic I sneer at, either.

I doubt there is any form, method, or framework of magic that isn't sneered at by someone as wishful thinking, though. It's mostly a matter of using it anyway. I am particularly fond of doggerel and dioramas, myself.

Absent

Oh I don't sneer at Death Magics or Death energies. But I wouldn't call upon them either in the hope they will protect me, my property or anything I am connected to. In that regard I do see it as wishful thinking on the part of the person who tries to use it as such.

In many ways I equate it to the sense that one is calling upon the strengths and abilities of the dead to do what they can not or are not willing to do for themselves. To use it in the sense of death magics and death energy is to place oneself outside the realm of living energies and hope that the negative facet of the dead energy will keep out things. Yet the realility is more often that death energies and magics call those things associated to death to them. When you call upon the grave its the grave you get returned to you. A fact I'm willing to bet is confirmed by anyone who has functioned in the capacity of a psychopomp.

To use it in the capacity of its liminal standing I can relate to as its a demensional barrier that is neither here nor there, not this or that.

[Marilyn/Absentminded]

To use it in the capacity of its liminal standing I can relate to as its a demensional barrier that is neither here nor there, not this or that.

Try thinking of it as cultural symbolism. 'Death energy' and 'Death magic' is just too hopelessly heavy for day-to-day thinking. The general western conception of the graveyard is as hallowed ground. Period. No psychopomps, yawning graves, or mouldering corpses necessary. No fancy posturing beyond - 'Hallowed Ground! Of course! Nothing bad gets through that in my culture's take on protective areas.'

Cthonic deities are fine for religious/spiritual, even psychological effectiveness. But they are not necessary for the use of graveyard dirt. Especially since few graveyards are dedicated to them. The general idea is that is where the dead sleep, protected, until judgment is called. The fact that that is a Christian idea doesn't negate its currency in general culture, and definitely doesn't negate its effectiveness in magic. Magic uses what's there.

Absent

[SunflowerP]

When you call upon the grave its the grave you get returned to you. A fact I'm willing to bet is confirmed by anyone who has functioned in the capacity of a psychopomp.

<blink> I can't see any connection between it and my experiences functioning in the capacity of psychopomp. YMMV, but I can only confirm things about my own mileage (for which this is irrelevant); I can't confirm yours - or dispute it, either, other than the implication that it's relevant to psychopomps who aren't you.

Sunflower

[monsnoleedra]

<blink> I can't see any connection between it and my experiences functioning in the capacity of psychopomp. YMMV, but I can only confirm things about my own mileage (for which this is irrelevant); I can't confirm yours - or dispute it, either, other than the implication that it's relevant to psychopomps who aren't you.

Sunflower

Probably not specifically related to this topic but one i'd like to speak on.

When I speak of the grave coming back to a psychopomp I tend to refer to the Spirits that get attracted as you work with a shade to get it to the veil. The more that tend to arrive the closer you get to bringing the shade or spirit your working with to crossing. Even to those things that are drawn to the veil but feed upon the lingering life force that clings to the shade / spirit's body as it remembers its old life. To the stepping into the negative plain yourself somewhat as you mask your own life energies and echo so as to not appear brighter than the veil you are trying to get them to cross over. To the smells that at times accompany the shade with the smell of the earth and a smell that is sort of like leaves that are damp and collecting upon the ground around fall.

In other capacities one encounters when they act to provide a home / body for the shade to reside in as it prepares to seperate itself from its life. Even to be the hollow bone to give it voice to its final words or convey its needs and desires.

I know for me the closer I get to opening the viel the closer I am to death. Now perhaps I am different for I have actually died and come back so see it differently.

[monsnoleedra]

Try thinking of it as cultural symbolism. 'Death energy' and 'Death magic' is just too hopelessly heavy for day-to-day thinking. The general western conception of the graveyard is as hallowed ground. Period. No psychopomps, yawning graves, or mouldering corpses necessary. No fancy posturing beyond - 'Hallowed Ground! Of course! Nothing bad gets through that in my culture's take on protective areas.'

If I follow Christian persceptions and concept then I can see you point. Yet I am not one who follows Christian influences. To me all ground is hallowed earth and nothing man does in the name of the Christian god will change that. It is the belief of Christian persceptions that paint a picture that no evil can cross it and makes it hallowed.

For me to accept that facet of Christian influence and cultural slant I would also have to accept that all other Christian influences are correct. That I can not and will not do. I do not Christanize my practices and beliefs or water them down so that it fits general or prevailing notions and concepts.

Cthonic deities are fine for religious/spiritual, even psychological effectiveness. But they are not necessary for the use of graveyard dirt. Especially since few graveyards are dedicated to them. The general idea is that is where the dead sleep, protected, until judgment is called. The fact that that is a Christian idea doesn't negate its currency in general culture, and definitely doesn't negate its effectiveness in magic. Magic uses what's there.

Sorry for me it does negate it. I am not Christian nor do I call upon Christian prescepts or ideal to justify my beliefs or concepts. Nor do I need Christian persceptions to build upon in order to utilize magical concepts or precepts.

Now I admit perhaps I am very much colored because I spent 23 years travelling the world and living all over it while I served in the military. It was not Christanity that touched upon the graveyards and tombs I entered in the Buddhist and Shinto places in Japan. It's wasn't Christanity that held sway at the many places in Europe and Africa that I went to or places that were dated back to the golden age of Greece. It wasn't Christanity that was passed down through my ancestry when it came to things inspired through Native American practices and influences.

If someone needs Christanity in their pagan pathways to enable them or empower them thats fine by me. But its not in mine nor does my spirituality, religion or general beliefs require it to do the things I do or the way I see the world. Perhaps that places me more in the LHP side of things and surely not into the what ever part of the way other look upon their lives.

I won't tell a person their wrong for needing the Christian persception of what a graveyard is. But i'm also not going to say its anything but wishful thinking from my perspective to claim one pathway and relie upon the precepts and notions of another spiritual practice to make thiers work.

[Marilyn/Absentminded]

For me to accept that facet of Christian influence and cultural slant I would also have to accept that all other Christian influences are correct.

Really? I would have thought somebody who makes a point of making his own path from bits and pieces of heritage and UPG would be more flexible. You don't seem to feel a need to follow the entire Greek mythology in order to venerate a couple of Greek gods, nor are the practices you attribute to various FN influences a whole picture of any one tribe I am aware of.

I should maybe mention that I wasn't brought up Christian (yet another thing I did not have to rebel against) and so feel free to 'chase inspiration with a club', as someone put it recently, in that mythos as irreverently as in any other.

Nor do I need Christian persceptions to build upon in order to utilize magical concepts or precepts.

Nobody needs to: it's a matter of what resonates and what appeals. You make it clear that that is a (the only?) religion that means nothing to you. Naturally the concepts connected to it wouldn't either. I don't know how anyone prunes them all from their consciousness, any more than how one prunes all references that can be traced to Shakespeare or Milton from their vocabulary, but I guess it's possible. (I notice them in your posts - they are part of common culture at this point and it doesn't matter if you've read the originals or not. Like most things in the background culture)

Now I admit perhaps I am very much colored because I spent 23 years travelling the world and living all over it while I served in the military. It was not Christanity that touched upon the graveyards and tombs I entered in the Buddhist and Shinto places in Japan. It's wasn't Christanity that held sway at the many places in Europe and Africa that I went to or places that were dated back to the golden age of Greece

.

Ah. The lure of the exotic. I've never been very far from the place I was born - I get uncomfortable too far from my stomping grounds.

It wasn't Christanity that was passed down through my ancestry when it came to things inspired through Native American practices and influences.

Everyone's different, I guess. I'd say that 90% of my FN side are devout Christians.

If someone needs Christanity in their pagan pathways to enable them or empower them thats fine by me. But its not in mine nor does my spirituality, religion or general beliefs require it to do the things I do or the way I see the world.

Good for you! There are so many unacknowledged influences on absolutely everything we do that I have to admit I would be totally unable to rule any one thing out so completely. It seems to make for a bit more certainty in oneself, to my eyes.

Perhaps that places me more in the LHP side of things and surely not into the what ever part of the way other look upon their lives.

I've never seen LHP as having 'DEFINITELY NOT CHRISTIAN' as part of its necessary definition.

I won't tell a person their wrong for needing the Christian persception of what a graveyard is. But i'm also not going to say its anything but wishful thinking from my perspective to claim one pathway and relie upon the precepts and notions of another spiritual practice to make thiers work.

Of course not. There is never a need to hide one's opinions of the practices and claims of others. It's good to have things to challenge and debate about. It's how we learn.

Absent

[monsnoleedra]

Really? I would have thought somebody who makes a point of making his own path from bits and pieces of heritage and UPG would be more flexible. You don't seem to feel a need to follow the entire Greek mythology in order to venerate a couple of Greek gods, nor are the practices you attribute to various FN influences a whole picture of any one tribe I am aware of.

But why be flexible with regards to graveyards and such? I follow Hekate / Hecate who already has a point and opinion on the dead, graveyards and restless dead. I follow Sekor and Bast who also have defined practices and opinons on the dead, graveyards, handling of bodies and passage into the next world. Thus all my questions in regards to such are already defined and answered within my belief and spiritual systems. Then factor in that both Hekate / Hecate and Sekor are psychopomps and conveyors of the dead and it just serves to answer more of my questions.

I would not expect a single nation to trully be reflective of the animistic facets of my pathway and beliefs / spiritual influences. My ancestry was founded on the border regions and interacted with many nations and married into a couple of them. I know they interacted with the Senecca, Cherokee, Blackfoot for sure and many other's that existed in the area or traded and such with them.

I should maybe mention that I wasn't brought up Christian (yet another thing I did not have to rebel against) and so feel free to 'chase inspiration with a club', as someone put it recently, in that mythos as irreverently as in any other.

I have no need to rebel against Christanity yet I have no need to utilize thier persception and thoughs on graves, graveyards and what makes it sacred, consecrated or un-consecrated or even hallowed ground.

Nobody needs to: it's a matter of what resonates and what appeals. You make it clear that that is a (the only?) religion that means nothing to you. Naturally the concepts connected to it wouldn't either. I don't know how anyone prunes them all from their consciousness, any more than how one prunes all references that can be traced to Shakespeare or Milton from their vocabulary, but I guess it's possible. (I notice them in your posts - they are part of common culture at this point and it doesn't matter if you've read the originals or not. Like most things in the background culture)

I didn't say as a whole that Christianity means nothing nor that I don't acknowledge it. I just don't use it as a basis for filling in blanks in my practice or beliefs. I just find it intriging how many pagans use Christanity to justify their beliefs or practices then expect others to do so. I will admit I can't rule out all its influences for I live in a society dominated and influenced for many decades by it. Though I truly believe a great deal of it lies in not fully understanding and developing ones knowledge of the gods / goddesses and systems they come from. The pro's and the con's of the system.

Ah. The lure of the exotic. I've never been very far from the place I was born - I get uncomfortable too far from my stomping grounds.

That's the way it was for my sisters and brother. Most have never been more than a few hours away from our parents home except to come and visit my home when I was stationed in different locals in the states.

Everyone's different, I guess. I'd say that 90% of my FN side are devout Christians.

With my family some are some are not. The sad part is we are so far removed from a direct influence today that it's more myth and legend now for us in many ways. Most are not even acknowledged now because they weren't recorded in the Dawes Rolls of the late 1800's and early 1900's.

Yet a great number of the people I know who are Native American, regardless of their nation are animist in their outlooks and beliefs.

Good for you! There are so many unacknowledged influences on absolutely everything we do that I have to admit I would be totally unable to rule any one thing out so completely. It seems to make for a bit more certainty in oneself, to my eyes.

I can rule out facets for the spirituality and beliefs I hold fullfil those answers. The sources from which they are drawn do not need the current Christian concepts to fill it in. Does it call upon older precepts and ideas? Perhaps but then the question also arises did Christanity influence them or did they influence Christanity?

But perhaps that is also part of the idea for I do not utilize the King James version of the bible as a reference nor see things in the current light of Christanity. I do admit though that what I know of the Gnostic facet of Christanity did hold some similarities to what I believe and how I see things.


It's like the original point of this thread, graveyard dirt. To me any grave is a sacred spot and to disturb it or desecrate it to take some soil is a foul deed. It's not just the physical grave itself that is sacred for its all the land that was established for the funeray rites for the body and the souls passage to the next world.

I don't see graveyards as calming places because I know their are spirits and shades that are earth bound at them. There are shades that refuse to cross-over even though they have dropped their earthly garb. There are shades that retain their desire of physical life and the enjoyments it holds for them and follow the living like vampires that seek to suck the life out so they may enjoy it again.

The very notion of this place where the soul lays in wait for the next coming to me is false. Yet it is that same sense of security and sleeping in waiting that fills so many with the though of soothing within a graveyard. That the energy of the graveyard is aligned to the negative influences of death and seems diminished or abscent against the living energy makes little to no inpact upon most people.

I doubt that many think of the soul in any other light than that of Christanity, yet for me I see it more in alignment to the Egyptain way with a Ka, Bah and the other parts of the body. As such it takes time to fully seperate and release and unless the graveyard is ancient and has no new burials their are shades and such always present and transistioning to the next world. To take any facet of the place with you is to invite it to your home and interact with what ever action you've set out.

But that to was part and parcle to most early spiritual belief systems. That's why graveyards were on the fringes of the towns and cities. Why people didn't pass them in the night if possible or take home souvieners from them. If they did it was for negative things for the most part, even when it was used to aid or help the person utilizing it. In my opinon one called upon the shades of thier ancestry and connected via gravedirt or other items because of the negative affect it would have upon a wood be trespasser.

The shade was there to tear you apart and inflict harm, even death to those who would trespass its protection. Not the happy happy joyful joyful concepts of how a protection usage is seen today. Yet that is my opinon so it may differ for others.

[Marilyn/Absentminded]

Well, that explains a lot. I don't have the strength (of mind or body) to sustain a constant state of awareness of the spooky bits, and I don't quite understand still why you seem to find being inspired by Christianity wronger than being inspired by other religions, but I'm the first to admit my own superficiality.

I have to admit to a certain amount of envy, though. I've flat-lined a few times (had to have an ICD installed last spring) and was in a coma for a week last winter. The closest I ever got to a vision was a weird dream during the coma - no deeper understanding of life except that I like it, no mystical fu at all, which used to annoy me. I find myself snorting at most NDE and OBE stories, but that is my own shortcoming. Just because I haven't experienced or don't believe in something doesn't mean others can't.

On which note, I would still encourage Zombyfrogg to use the dirt. Her feelings of safety in the graveyard are as valid, and as likely to be correct, as your feelings of peril. 'Doesn't share my view' is not the same as 'doesn't know what they're experiencing'.

Absent