Alienation from the greater pagan community

[Juniperberry]

What does "paganiz[ing] heathenry" mean?

You know, I'm not even exactly sure, tbh. Just sometimes I feel like I've drifted away from the heart of heathenry and its that that makes me consider if maybe I should back away from the boards for awhile.

I know that sounds weird/bad.

[caryatid]

What does "paganiz[ing] heathenry" mean?

Oh oh! JB can I try to tackle this one?
I took it to mean rounding off the edges of heathenry to be a smoother fit within the "greater pagan community"- or focusing mostly on the similarities and glossing over the differences in order to be able to discuss things.

[cigfran]

As I read over this thread I am reminded of the old issue one used to face at many events, that of who was the more Witchy based upon dress. Go to any number of events and it seemed if you didn't have the appropriate robes, cloaks, hats, etc then you were not really a witchy person.

Since my pathwalk is more Shamanic than anything else I find I do not really relate to Pagan or Heathen as a descriptor. So in that regard I see much alienation from the so called greater community. Since I believe in ancestors, Land Wights and other spirits forces and such I feel closer to the Heathen community in many ways. Yet I also have a great deal of Family Tradition, Stregia and folk magic traditions that I also get placed with the Pagan side of the equation.

However, in the end I do not truly fit or belong to either category. Yet factor in that Shamanic influences tend to make a person singular in grouping so I am always alienated.

And this is why, for all the good reasons why any particular person or group may dis-associate themselves from the term, 'pagan' has a certain utility. There is an explosion in all the myriad ways in which people approach spirit, deity, folkway, etc., and more communication between their practitioners and exemplars than ever. While an active 'movement' may not be for everyone (I haven't attended a Pagan Pride day in years myself), there are various overlapping needs, views, etc., for which 'pagan' is an useful gathering point.

The problem of course, as has been amply pointed out here, is when a couple of major common features of a couple significant overlapping groups become the de facto definition.

Natter grommish. I'm in the middle of moving my home and I'm still a little shellshocked.

[thorsvin]

However, in the end I do not truly fit or belong to either category. Yet factor in that Shamanic influences tend to make a person singular in grouping so I am always alienated.

Yes, it always seems that it is hard for Shamanic practitioners to fit in. There are so many would be shamanic practitioners in the Pagan community, but when they meet a authentic one, they get scared and run away. That's true in nearly any culture.

[thorsvin]

If we can accept that general reason for the riff, I'm less interested in WHY it exists (the focus of the thread so far) than WHAT to do about it. So my question is: Should heathens attempt to join with general Pagans, consciously expanding the commonly understood meaning of Pagan beyond Wiccish? Or should heathens separate themselves in order to more fully develop their own community / identity? Something else? Why, and what ramifications could such actions have for both communities?

I don't have any concrete ideas about this (I guess it really is up to separate kindreds and heathens to decide) but the thing is that siding with the Pagan community would have its benefits. It's getting to the point where Pagans (read: Wiccans) are gradually becoming more accepted (tolerated?) in outside society. That means that if heathens join with the Pagans then by default we would have a better standing in the outside world, If that makes any sense.

It's a trade off: More descriptive label, or strength in numbers.

[caryatid]

If we can accept that general reason for the riff, I'm less interested in WHY it exists (the focus of the thread so far) than WHAT to do about it. So my question is: Should heathens attempt to join with general Pagans, consciously expanding the commonly understood meaning of Pagan beyond Wiccish? Or should heathens separate themselves in order to more fully develop their own community / identity? Something else? Why, and what ramifications could such actions have for both communities?

I don't necessarily see those options as being "either/or", but more "and".

First, I think we need to stop viewing it as a rift (which indicates a "breaking") and view it as more of a natural division. The "why" of the situation might not be important, but how we view it is. Asatru, while philosophically generally on keel with many other pagan faiths, is pretty non-compatible when it comes to actual practice- to the point where people are usually uncomfortable or confused when watching/participating in one of our ceremonies.

But yes, we should join in the general pagan community, and yes we should continue to separate ourselves and develop our own community.

Communication and education is the key. Keeping an open mind and remain willing to discuss, compare, contrast, and examine without insulting or making the other feel wrong. Invite curiosity, while setting boundaries.
As I mentioned, at Pagan Pride Day our Hall performed a naming ceremony for a newborn. That really put us out there, center stage, saying "Hey, look what we do! We aren't all drunken women-hating racists!" After it was over, a few people stayed to ask questions...conversations and discussions sprung up all over the park, and that one act played a huge part in dissolving preconceived notions and creating a bridge of understanding.
There isn't a huge Asatru community out in our parts, so sometimes we will invite other pagans to join us for holidays. Our only request is that if they choose to participate in the ritual portions, they do not hail any god outside our faith. --This is what I meant by setting boundaries. Be open, but do not compromise your beliefs/worship/traditions for others.

just my thoughts.

[Juniperberry]

Oh oh! JB can I try to tackle this one?
I took it to mean rounding off the edges of heathenry to be a smoother fit within the "greater pagan community"- or focusing mostly on the similarities and glossing over the differences in order to be able to discuss things.

Thanks, that's a pretty good way of explaining it.

[Juniperberry]

I don't have any concrete ideas about this (I guess it really is up to separate kindreds and heathens to decide) but the thing is that siding with the Pagan community would have its benefits. It's getting to the point where Pagans (read: Wiccans) are gradually becoming more accepted (tolerated?) in outside society. That means that if heathens join with the Pagans then by default we would have a better standing in the outside world, If that makes any sense.

It's a trade off: More descriptive label, or strength in numbers.

I don't know. This doesn't sit well with me for some reason. I don't think heathenry needs to become some tag-along group of paganisms to reap social benefits. I would rather it be autonomous, with kindreds working to make a place for themselves in their local communities, and distinct from greater pagandom. Because, again, we aren't part of that pagan lifestyle. It just seems like it would add more confusion.

Not that there can't be mingling and sharing between communities and whatnot. Just...I don't want heathenry to have Wicca's mainstream tolerance.

[cigfran]

Just...I don't want heathenry to have Wicca's mainstream tolerance.

Would you be willing to expand on that?

[cigfran]

There are so many would be shamanic practitioners in the Pagan community, but when they meet a authentic one, they get scared and run away. That's true in nearly any culture.

Hm. My own experience is that authentic journeyers and similar people of power tend to be met with a certain reverence.