Wepwawet--jackal or wolf?

[Setnakht]

Also I must point out that calling it "Jackal City" is very misleading. A better translation is "Dog City" which does then relate back to the contextual dog/wolf dynamic I've been talking about.

The ancient Greek word for wolf is 'lykos', hence, Lykopolis or Wolf City.
The ancient Greek word for dog is 'kyon' , Hence, Cynopolis or Dog City.
So you're right that the correct translation is Dog City, not Jackal City.
At the same time the Greek name for Assyut was Lykopolis. So it seems
the Greeks distinguished between dogs and wolves in their language.
So both language and mummies point in the direction of Wepwawet
being a wolf-headed netjer. The spiritual significance of the wolf and the jackal as understood in ancient Egypt would be interesting to explore just to see the differences and similarities between the two.

[SunflowerP]

The ancient Greek word for wolf is 'lykos', hence, Lykopolis or Wolf City.
The ancient Greek word for dog is 'kyon' , Hence, Cynopolis or Dog City.
So you're right that the correct translation is Dog City, not Jackal City.
At the same time the Greek name for Assyut was Lykopolis. So it seems
the Greeks distinguished between dogs and wolves in their language.
So both language and mummies point in the direction of Wepwawet
being a wolf-headed netjer. The spiritual significance of the wolf and the jackal as understood in ancient Egypt would be interesting to explore just to see the differences and similarities between the two.

I'm not sure why Greek-language taxonomy would be more important to this than Egyptian-language taxonomy. It was one thing when you dismissed Bezenwepwy's Egyptian-language-based arguments as "grammar alone" when defending the importance of the physical evidence of archaeology (though I disagree with the implication that physical evidence overrides linguistic evidence), but in that case surely Greek taxonomy is not just grammar but foreign grammar, and even less relevant than Egyptian linguistic distinctions?

Sunflower

[Jenett]

I'm not sure why Greek-language taxonomy would be more important to this than Egyptian-language taxonomy.

Not to sidetrack this too far, but I just grabbed my Liddell and Scott (the standard ancient Greek lexicon reference unless you get into specialised vocabularies.)

Kyon (kappa-upsilon-omega-nu) has a definite connotation of domestication, versus species. Without typing it all out with the Greek, it references "a dog or bitch", "house-dogs (that fed while their master was at table)", hounds.

And it says: "It is also often applied to the faithful or watchful servants of the gods, so the eagle is [greek phrase], and the griffins also are [greek phrase]", both using the adjectival form of kyon (kunes - upsilon is variously translated as u or y.)

Lykos (lamda-upsilon-kappa-omicron-sigma) is solely "a wolf" , but there are a lot of surrounding related phrases that make it clear it's predominantly used in wild settings - sharp teeth, being torn apart by wolves, etc.

I don't have time or resources to dig into that much more deeply without a lot more work, but I think it's not unreasonable to assume the distinction is as much action and behavior as anything species related. (Classical Greek tends to be pretty lousy with that sort of thing, anyway, so I'd want clear evidence otherwise before assuming that they were focusing on a species difference over a behavioral one.)

[Devo]

So it seems
the Greeks distinguished between dogs and wolves in their language.
So both language and mummies point in the direction of Wepwawet
being a wolf-headed netjer.

Soooooooo.... We are taking the Greek's word over the Egyptian's? Seems to me that 1. It's odd that a Kemetic practicing person would take LP Greek words as The Truth vs. a couple thousand years worth of AE history and tradition. Perhaps I am Misreading you, but it seems like that is what you're doing. You have read one post about how the Greeks saw Wpwt, and now suddenly anything that could indicate otherwise from AE is not valid. I don't get it.

And 2. Bezen never said that he couldn't be a wolf. In fact, I believe he said he was both- depending on the context. So why you seem to be so intent on making one way or the other (as opposed to perhaps both... Aka grey) is beyond me.

-Devo

[Setnakht]

Soooooooo.... We are taking the Greek's word over the Egyptian's? Seems to me that 1. It's odd that a Kemetic practicing person would take LP Greek words as The Truth vs. a couple thousand years worth of AE history and tradition. Perhaps I am Misreading you, but it seems like that is what you're doing. You have read one post about how the Greeks saw Wpwt, and now suddenly anything that could indicate otherwise from AE is not valid. I don't get it.
-Devo

I never said the Egyptian word must be discounted. The Egyptian word is more inclusive than the Greek terms, hence the confusion. If you will permit me to draw a comparison, just as the English word 'canid' can apply to dogs, wolves, foxes, jackals so the Egyptian word is more inclusive. It does not refer only to dogs or jackals. Personally I think it's reasonable to pay some attention to what an Egyptologist said. I also think that wolf mummies add to the issue. Please go back and reread what I said. I did not read just one post and come to a conclusion. Yes, you are very much misreading me. Please go back and read the ancient sources given in the wikipedia entry. It is my opinion that the Greek term for the city of Assyut gives some, altho limited weight to the idea that Wepwawet is a wolf deity.
I deny that I--as you said--am taking LP Greek words as The Truth vs. a couple thousand years of AE history and tradition.

[spoOk]

Soooooooo.... We are taking the Greek's word over the Egyptian's? Seems to me that 1. It's odd that a Kemetic practicing person would take LP Greek words as The Truth vs. a couple thousand years worth of AE history and tradition. Perhaps I am Misreading you, but it seems like that is what you're doing. You have read one post about how the Greeks saw Wpwt, and now suddenly anything that could indicate otherwise from AE is not valid. I don't get it.

And 2. Bezen never said that he couldn't be a wolf. In fact, I believe he said he was both- depending on the context. So why you seem to be so intent on making one way or the other (as opposed to perhaps both... Aka grey) is beyond me.

-Devo

has anyone considered the African wild dog,or cape hunting dog?

genus lycaon.

[Bezenwepwy]

If anybody else brings something interesting to the table, I might step back in agin.

I thought of something which is actually quite relevant to this discussion. Which is the Greek conflation of Wepwawet and Makedon. (And IIRC, Diodorus actually calls him Makedon, rather than Ophois.) This isn't an area which I have studied yet in any depth whatsoever, although it is certainly on my 'to do' list. From what little I currently know of Makedon, it is apparent that he is closely associated with wolves, as is Macedonia in general.

One needfully has to wonder which came first then, of course. Did the Greeks first consider Wepwawet to be wolfish enough to equate/replace him with Makedon? Or were they equated first for various other reasons and so "wolf" as we know it came to be associated with Wepwawet? A bit of both? Without further investigation it can really only left at that.

Regardless of which kind of timeline it follows, references to wolves should not be very surprising in any situation where Wepwawet is being conflated with Makedon.

[Bezenwepwy]

Kyon (kappa-upsilon-omega-nu) has a definite connotation of domestication, versus species. Without typing it all out with the Greek, it references "a dog or bitch", "house-dogs (that fed while their master was at table)", hounds.

Lykos (lamda-upsilon-kappa-omicron-sigma) is solely "a wolf" , but there are a lot of surrounding related phrases that make it clear it's predominantly used in wild settings - sharp teeth, being torn apart by wolves, etc.

Oh brilliant! Thank you so much for sharing this, sincerely.

[Rowanfox]

The spiritual significance of the wolf and the jackal as understood in ancient Egypt would be interesting to explore just to see the differences and similarities between the two.

As a contributer to this conversation that knows next to nothing about any of the netjer, that is what I am wondering. Not so much who is what, but what the significance is that one may be jackal and one may be wolf. What are the significant spiritual/theological differences between an anthopomorphic dog, wolf or jackal?

[Bezenwepwy]

Not so much who is what, but what the significance is that one may be jackal and one may be wolf. What are the significant spiritual/theological differences between an anthopomorphic dog, wolf or jackal?

Part of the point I have been trying to make is that to the ancient Egyptians there likely wasn't any distinction between jackals and wolves. Both would naturally have fallen under the same classification of 'sAb' and its later replacement 'wns.' I've previously written about the symbology of jackals in Ancient Egypt if anybody wanted to learn more about that: http://www.per-sabu.org/jackals--sabw.html

Seeking to understand the symbolical differences between 'domestic canids' and 'wild canids' is much more to the point IMO. The best way to talk about it is to reference the nature of the main two jackal deities, Anubis and Wepwawet. For example, one is a guardian, the other is a hunter. One stays at his post, the other wanders through the wilds. One tends to be more nurturing and feminine, the other is more avenging and masculine.

The Egyptians made concerted efforts to 'tame' Anubis by appealing to his more gentle aspects, whilst supressing his more dangerous ones. Where once Anubis and Wepwawet were both equally sAb, the former came to be seen as much more dog-like while the latter retained his original nature.

I could actually go on and on about this, but it's probably best if I leave it fairly succinct. I can elaborate on as needed however!