TWS: Project Montoring Thread

[Juni]

What is it about the book that you don't like?

I do have an answer for you but it's going to have to wait until my brain resolidifies from its current state of mush. :/

[SatSekhem]

I do have an answer for you but it's going to have to wait until my brain resolidifies from its current state of mush. :/

No problem. I am in no rush. I can wait for eternity if I gotta!

[Waldhexe]

It was certainly helpful for me, as I've settled on the Inner Path.

Cool! So I'm not the only one...

I read Chapter 2. I really am not enjoying this book. *sighs*

I'd also love to hear what you dislike, but no rush...

[Juni]

I do have an answer for you but it's going to have to wait until my brain resolidifies from its current state of mush. :/

I totally forgot that you guys had asked me about this! Sorry.

I think I can sum it up in two quotes, from the Inner Path portion of Chapter 1. (Pages 25 & 26 respectively in my copy.)

"These stories promise, over and over, that if we set off on the path with nothing but courage, determination, and a kind heart, we will reach our goals no matter how impossible they seem. The stories promise that in return for our greatheartedness, the universe will provide miraculous assistance that can bring about huge, impossible changes for the better."

"Through all her courage, vision, and endurance, the transformation she seeks comes about, miraculously, at the last moment."

These two quotes seem to exemplify, for me, the attitude taken in TWS: that if only we believe, we will be rewarded. Maybe Starhawk and Valentine live in a different version of reality than I do, because in the world I live in, that's crap. There is no Old Nurse hanging around, waiting for me to ask the right question, to hear me say the misguided wish so I can learn some cosmic lesson in a painfully roundabout way. Life is not a fairy-tale; I don't come with a supporting cast. While there are certainly lessons to be learned, I have to look for them, and nothing in the world happens just to teach me something.

This, combined with seeing Goddess in caps all over the place, and the generically Wiccish framework that I've seen thus far... I am positive that I can learn from this book, that it can be a useful tool, but I do feel a bit like I'm hammering a nail with a brick. And that I picked the brick from a pile of tools without knowing what kind of work I'd need a tool for, if that makes any sense.

[SatSekhem]

these two quotes seem to exemplify, for me, the attitude taken in tws: That if only we believe, we will be rewarded. Maybe starhawk and valentine live in a different version of reality than i do, because in the world i live in, that's crap. There is no old nurse hanging around, waiting for me to ask the right question, to hear me say the misguided wish so i can learn some cosmic lesson in a painfully roundabout way. Life is not a fairy-tale; i don't come with a supporting cast. While there are certainly lessons to be learned, i have to look for them, and nothing in the world happens just to teach me something.

This, combined with seeing goddess in caps all over the place, and the generically wiccish framework that i've seen thus far... I am positive that i can learn from this book, that it can be a useful tool, but i do feel a bit like i'm hammering a nail with a brick. And that i picked the brick from a pile of tools without knowing what kind of work i'd need a tool for, if that makes any sense.

yes! This.

[Waldhexe]

Thanks for explaining!

I must say I feel completly different about the whole book. But I think that may be partly because it is one of the first books I worked with when I started to get serious about pagan stuff, so I guess I have a lot of blind spots about it, like people would have about their "first love".

The other reason is that I interpreted some of the stuff you quoted in a different way for myself. F.ex. I don't think I come with a supportive cast either, but I interpreted the "old nurse" to be an intuitive part of myself which I can talk to.

I'm not saying my interpretation is better. I'm just clarifying why I feel different. There are a couple of 'common esoteric or pagan wisdoms' in the pagan community which are ment to be helpful, but don't help me at all. So I think I can understand how something can piss off someone else while it may be helpful to me.

While there are certainly lessons to be learned, I have to look for them, and nothing in the world happens just to teach me something.

I feel the same thing there. I hate it when people tell me I'm only suffering because I haven't learned xy and the suffering is there to teach me the lesson so I can advance to the next level of awareness. I find esoteric statements like that deeply arrogant and cynical.

But I got a different impression from the book in that department. I'm not sure if the book says this directly somewhere and I have simply disregarded it or if it was somewhere slightly ambivalent in its meaning and I gave it the benefit of the doubt. If I remember correctly there's a section in the book, where they talk about the 'tough love of the Goddess', but somewhere else they clarify this issue and say that people don't suffer just to learn something. I think I have to reread those parts if I find them.

[Waldhexe]

But I got a different impression from the book in that department. I'm not sure if the book says this directly somewhere and I have simply disregarded it or if it was somewhere slightly ambivalent in its meaning and I gave it the benefit of the doubt. If I remember correctly there's a section in the book, where they talk about the 'tough love of the Goddess', but somewhere else they clarify this issue and say that people don't suffer just to learn something. I think I have to reread those parts if I find them.

I think I found it:

The Old Woman who appears is the Crone incarnate, guide and teacher who practices "tough love." She teaches not by imposing punishments but by making us face the consequences of our action. (p. 6)

OK, I must admit it's a bit shorter than I remembered it (or there really is another section). I think we had a large discussion about this issue in my former group and came to our own conclusions which helped us to clear the air and everyone went on with her/his own take of this issue.

I don't care much for the Crone with 'tough love' bit, but I'm glad they don't say we only suffer to learn lessons for climbing the next step towards illumination.

IMO we suffer because a lot of living conditions suck. Different people contributed in different ways to this. - Those are the consequences I face, but they are the consequences of all action of all people involved in creating my living conditions and those around me, not only the consequences of my actions. I don't see any tough love of any Goddess in suffering, but I see the chance to learn to make it better.

If I just interpret 'the Crone' as representation of consequences it makes sense to see her as a teacher in the meaning of looking at what is and how it came to be and find a way to learn from it and change it. The 'tough love'-bit doesn't make much sense here unless I count it as 'tough love' that 'the Crone' represents reflection on how things are and why. Looking at the details may be painful, but also helpful.

Well, I have my troubles with the concept of the neopagan Crone. This threefold Goddess stuff isn't my thing. But I find it a good learning experience to discuss my and other's difficulties with this chapter. I remember that I got out a lot of discussing the stuff in the book that made me (and others) uncomfortable. I think that's also a way to work with the book and the story.