The Cauldron: A Pagan Forum

I've never considered a lack of communication due to timing. I don't have deities that are specific to seasonal change, so perhaps that's it. However, I do find it more difficult to get a long-term conversation going with either Sekhmet or Hwt-Hrw in the winter time here as opposed to spring and summer. This, however, could also be due to my SAD. It negatively impacts everything. :mad:

 
That makes perfect sense to me.  Sekhmet-Hethert leave at that time and then come back later.  Her myth explains the sun's cycle.  

Your post about Papa Legba made me think of Lent.  Isn't that a break for honoring the lwa?

sorry tried to put partial quote in and it did not show up also unable to delete my post i will put the quot in next post
sorry!

No not rambling at least not to me...
I totally agree with everything you say- at least from my experience. I see God as above everything and the gods and spirits and spirit guides as more between us and God with a certian agenda and personality. Of course this is a new belief and as i always say I am constantly learning and growing everyday!

Your post about Papa Legba made me think of Lent.  Isn't that a break for honoring the lwa?

 
As far as I know, there is never a break unless they want us to have one.

I've heard from Vodouisaints who practice Haitian Vodou that during Lent you don't honor the lwa.  

But that may not be true of some Houses or New Orleans Vodou, etc.

 
I don't know, honestly. I've read two or three books about it, but I've never come across that before. My area is distinctly not-Haitian in any way or form so it's not like I could ask, either. Plus, if I did ask, I'd probably be met with derision so... Heh.

I guess we'll see what happens to Papa Legba during that time?

*lied*

It occurred to me while stocking some stuff @ work, (incidentally where I still am -damn you slow delivery guy!) the the direct interaction with deity that many of us seek *puts up hand* may be a partial indirect result of a cultural bleed-through /carry over from the 'norm' where direct interaction/prayers with the Christian God/Saints is (sometimes/often?) accepted to result in direct communication. Know what I mean?
 
Or not. *ponders*

 
I see what you mean but i don't really think Christianism has any influence here. I was raised Catholic, anf cathechism as mass always made a big point of 'you shall not challenge/ask to God to manifest Himself'.

You were supposed to pray and accept that God listened and chose for the best, regardless of the appeareances - spiritual revelations are in Cristianity for a few chosen and even those are accepted only after being tested by the church.

I believe that, if anything, the opening of a direct comunication with gods was more consistently part of pre-cristian religions.

Think of the pilgrimages to Eleusys, where devotees came to experience the Mysteries, other mysteric cults of all over the world, the Delphic Oracle.

Pagan religions of the past, while didn't cultivate the belief that gods were always full of love toward everyone, certainly seemed to take for granted that gods were open to personal communication with their devotees.

Your take on personal relationships with deity really made me think, as I've been going through a mild spiritual crisis over the past few months about having gone my entire life without ever feeling the presence of a god, so I took up the mantle of deist a number of years ago in reaction to that.

Thanks. Its nice to know that I'm not just rambling to myself all the time.  So I'll ramble again.


Heathenry made me question , for myself, why I desired a personal relationship. Speaking of what I know, its important in Christianity because that's the goal: develop a relationship with Christ the Lord and return to him at his mercy. But...is that even relevant to my spirituality? What does having a personal, communicative relationship accomplish for me?

In alternative religious communities I see a lot of worshippers whose communication with deity can usually (not always) be  defined in two ways: either the god communicates to them methods for self-help therapy or the god communicates ways in which they want to be worshipped/honored. How do I feel about those two things? Do I need the gods to develop me into a better human being and for what purpose? And what is really the point of traditional customs and worship?

Firstly,  I don't feel like I need the gods assistance in being human. I'm flawed, always will be. I can take my cues from society, from my loved ones, and from my personal insights to navigate how I experience the world. Regardless, I will suffer, I will mess up, subconscious motivators will influence my life and most of all-- I will die. Death, IMO, is the crux of most worship. It was for me, at least.

79 trillion people have come and gone. Everyone before has died no matter if they were religious, famous, poor or a criminal. The fear of death causes us to either live life to its fullest or to hide from life and its dangers. Doesn't really matter what you worship, how you live, or what you accomplished. You're going to die. Communicating with the divine doesn't stop this, though it may give you hope that there's something afterwards. Communicating with the gods may make living more enjoyable, and if that's the goal, does it matter if Thor literally tells you he wants pickles on Friday or is it just as worthwhile to give an offering and experience favor/good living in return? Silence may not be as comforting as hearing that there's something out there, but for me, I enjoy seeing the manifestation of a reciprocal relationship in my life and it makes spoken communication unnecessary.

Secondly, I also don't feel that I need the gods to tell me what they want. Worship isn't universal, obviously, so what would be the point of telling me to worship one way and telling Fred from down the streer another? Is it customized to our needs and if so, why? Do the gods have some altruistic motive in having me bathe on Sundays and Fred singing on Wednesday? Is it to spiritually enlighten us in god-tailored ways? I don't think so. Its pretty simple to me, the gods don't care if we worship them or not. Freyr doesn't pout and stop sparking fertility because you aren't giving him attention. But, leave him something awesome and you'll get his attention and that's a 'blessing'. I leave him something according to the customs I appreciate, in the traditions of my history, because I invite him and give him honor through offering him the sacred in *my* life.

And I do these things because they're there regardless. Odin leads the wild hunt,  not because of me but because he does, so I leave oats when I know he's passing. At spring I know Freyr moves through...its me in their world. Not them in mine. Because this is how I see it, I don't need vocal confirmation that they're in 'my' reality.

Grimm postulates that the one-eyed God is the single sun and that that star is the eye of god watching us. If I just take a quiet moment and concentrate on the idea, that Right.Now the eye of god is above me and I absorb the depth of that presence, then I don't need any type of personal and emotional relationship. Same thing with Tiw, and taking into consideration that he is the daylight covering earth, that he's the light seeping through my windows into my home. This existence, that we all live and die within, is present. That presence is all the communication I need.

If 79 trillion people have died then I truly doubt I will join my gods and sit at their right hand and be their best friend. And I'm fine with that. Take me home to my dead. They don't care if I'm flawed or unenlightened. I loved them and I remembered them and I kept our history alive. I'll go behind the scenes like everyone else and the gods will continue working upon the world for those I left behind. Fertility will continue, the sun will rise, and love will blossom. Those are the gods (you and I certainly didn't create those things), and I don't need them to speak to me to enjoy them and experience them.  And I do; the gods are very real to me.

The dead and spirits might chose to guide me, advise me and influence me. It'll be in their language, and I feel I would need to relearn that, through folklore and wives tales etc, instead of intuitively speaking it. The gods may chose to personally address me- but if they do- it'll be for something extremely drastic and that's not really something I want. ... And there is some similarity in knowing how to speak the language of the deads' 'voice' and divine communication. But I do tend to distrust those who immediately claim to hear the actual voices of gods.

(Course, since I don't communicate with the gods, I can't know the depth and framework in which it takes place. I just have some ideas on the alternative.)

Heathenry made me question , for myself, why I desired a personal relationship. Speaking of what I know, its important in Christianity because that's the goal: develop a relationship with Christ the Lord and return to him at his mercy. But...is that even relevant to my spirituality? What does having a personal, communicative relationship accomplish for me?

Yeah, I think it's a very hard question to ask yourself coming from such a background. When I was a kid and pre-teen, the emphasis was very much on having a personal relationship with god. "Talking with" god, or "listening to" god were all totally normal things that every good Christian should do on a regular basis, and if you didn't then you weren't doing a very good job. I would LIKE to say that sentiment didn't affect me? But it probably did... add to that all the fluffy Wicca books I read during my first few teenage years just out of Christian-dom that also heavily emphasized the personal/patron deity thing, and frequently worded themselves to sound like patrons were absolutely necessary, it probably made me pretty anxious.

I think I'm still coming from that place of wanting for the sake of wanting... keeping up with the Joneses, almost. Because when I go in to analyze the feeling, I find that there really isn't much more to it than that anxiety and insecurity. What would it accomplish for me? In all honesty, I can't see it genuinely enriching my life in ways that others claim it does for them.

Firstly,  I don't feel like I need the gods assistance in being human. I'm flawed, always will be. I can take my cues from society, from my loved ones, and from my personal insights to navigate how I experience the world. Regardless, I will suffer, I will mess up, subconscious motivators will influence my life and most of all-- I will die. Death, IMO, is the crux of most worship. It was for me, at least.

That is exactly how I feel.

Death... not so much. I don't seem to worry much about afterlife things. I'm interested in knowing what may be beyond, but most of my fears and concerns lie with the 'unfinished business' cliche. Leaving a graphic novel or illustration series incomplete is my greatest fear.

79 trillion people have come and gone. Everyone before has died no matter if they were religious, famous, poor or a criminal. The fear of death causes us to either live life to its fullest or to hide from life and its dangers. Doesn't really matter what you worship, how you live, or what you accomplished. You're going to die. Communicating with the divine doesn't stop this, though it may give you hope that there's something afterwards. Communicating with the gods may make living more enjoyable, and if that's the goal, does it matter if Thor literally tells you he wants pickles on Friday or is it just as worthwhile to give an offering and experience favor/good living in return? Silence may not be as comforting as hearing that there's something out there, but for me, I enjoy seeing the manifestation of a reciprocal relationship in my life and it makes spoken communication unnecessary.

Haha, maybe that's the lesson I need to learn: stop being so damn needy. Just need to teach myself that a relationship isn't guaranteed or necessary or even "better", but rather just is... I think that's a good long term self-help kind of goal I can get behind! Note to self: stop being so butthurt.

And I do these things because they're there regardless. Odin leads the wild hunt,  not because of me but because he does, so I leave oats when I know he's passing. At spring I know Freyr moves through...its me in their world. Not them in mine. Because this is how I see it, I don't need vocal confirmation that they're in 'my' reality.

Grimm postulates that the one-eyed God is the single sun and that that star is the eye of god watching us. If I just take a quiet moment and concentrate on the idea, that Right.Now the eye of god is above me and I absorb the depth of that presence, then I don't need any type of personal and emotional relationship. Same thing with Tiw, and taking into consideration that he is the daylight covering earth, that he's the light seeping through my windows into my home. This existence, that we all live and die within, is present. That presence is all the communication I need.

If 79 trillion people have died then I truly doubt I will join my gods and sit at their right hand and be their best friend. And I'm fine with that. Take me home to my dead. They don't care if I'm flawed or unenlightened. I loved them and I remembered them and I kept our history alive. I'll go behind the scenes like everyone else and the gods will continue working upon the world for those I left behind. Fertility will continue, the sun will rise, and love will blossom. Those are the gods (you and I certainly didn't create those things), and I don't need them to speak to me to enjoy them and experience them.  And I do; the gods are very real to me.

The dead and spirits might chose to guide me, advise me and influence me. It'll be in their language, and I feel I would need to relearn that, through folklore and wives tales etc, instead of intuitively speaking it. The gods may chose to personally address me- but if they do- it'll be for something extremely drastic and that's not really something I want. ... And there is some similarity in knowing how to speak the language of the deads' 'voice' and divine communication. But I do tend to distrust those who immediately claim to hear the actual voices of gods.

(Course, since I don't communicate with the gods, I can't know the depth and framework in which it takes place. I just have some ideas on the alternative.)

Love it! Lots and lots of points that hit home for me. And wow, that whole post almost makes me want to pursue Heathenry more than any other religion I've ever looked into. You've got a skill, lady. ;P

Don't get me wrong, it would be awesome to have some incredibly mystical contact with a god and to know you were looked after. But I think even people who experience divine communication are working under faith that what they sense and perceive is truly a deity and not imagination or insanity.

Oh definitely. I'm not in any position to tell someone else what their deal is, let alone doubt them when I have no reason to. It creates an interesting (and frustrating) paradox when I have to reconcile my trust in others' belief with my own no-belief.

Well...I don't necessarily mean that no divine communication means no relationship at all, but that there isn't a personal salvation relationship. Like, Woden isn't going to appear because he's worried about the state of *my* soul and wants to save me or anything. The gods are concerned with the masses and 'right' and productive behavior in communities. Taking an oath establishes an interesting relationship. Developing a sacred understanding through continual worship is a unique dynamic. There's a religion and a belief there for a reason. The gods aren't absent.  

Oh no, not saying that, just saying that it isn't always "Hey, so-in-so. Worship me because it'll be good for you, yeah? We got a deal? Cool. See you tomorrow morning at 7am. Oh, and bring cookies."

Oh, ew, don't say that! :/ It was complimentary, so thank you, but it seriously touches on an issue I'm having. TMI, but lately I've sort of stepped back from the forum because I don't know what my purpose for being here is. Why am I getting into stupid debates, why am I vehemently defending my POV, etc? Like, dude, am I subconsciously proselytizing? *shudder* . And honestly, I think my mouth does more harm to heathenry than good. :p

Haha, I've asked myself that question before, mostly from social art forums. And nah, I don't really get that vibe from you... and definitely not during the course of this discussion. As for me? Religiously/spiritually speaking, I'm single and looking, so it's definitely welcome. I've always been drawn to the north and western European things; there's something about the mood of the culture(s) that really feels like home to me in a sense, and it inspires a great amount of nostalgia even though I've never been to Europe. The most similar climate I've found myself in has been British Columbia and Alaska, and every time I go there it's like a really amazing punch to the stomach. The big (big) problem is that I currently have little to no affinity for the Norse pantheon. The WV, though? It's definitely tempting.

The things I really dig about it are the (relative) simplicity and pragmatism, and emphasis on land, family, and seasons. Those things are the bread and butter of my life.

I actually really enjoyed your post about Mayan recon and would like to hear more on it. Mel Gibson's Apocalpyto is probably a bad reference but it seems like another terrible- beautiful worldview and it'd be interesting to hear all about its complexities.

Thank you! I've been doing more reading on online articles, and will definitely be posting them as they meet my personal guidelines for relevance. :B It's lonely work for someone looking to get out of it what I am, so really, thanks!

Tbh I haven't actually seen Apocalypto and don't know much about it? I'm notoriously bad at stomaching film violence, so I generally stay away from R's... and judging by how bloody The Passion was, I can only assume the man had a veritable field day with the undercurrent of gore to be found in the Meso WV... not to mention the heavy, heavy Christian bias that I'm sure is present. And oop, looking at the IMDB page for it, apparently it has this as an opening quote: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." Blech!