Pagan Apologetics?

[Darkhawk]

May I please quote you? You have said so succinctly what has rambled out of me incoherently that I feel I must share your words.

Sure.

[Juniperberry]

I think I would say that Christians take the most hits when it comes to Science questioning faith, but does not the same logical arguments apply to aspects of pagan spirituality?

I don't see a contradiction between science and my faith, necessarily. Christianity generally has the belief that God created everything absolutely, while in heathenism it's much more practical than that. The world exists, absolutely. There's some some cosmogony/cosmology that tells a story of it but the main point is: here is earth- it grows stuff. Here are the sun and moon: they mark time. Practical. I...don't see what scientists can argue about with that.

My gods aren't creators, so having science tell me ways in which the world is created and ways in which it works doesn't negate my faith, it only adds to my understanding of how the world works and how it was created.

How would a pagan respond to a scientist who claims that being predisposed to religious belief is a genetic flaw?

First off, I think a lot of Western science (and atheism..and maybe just the media reporting it) can have a very narrow scope of what religion is. You don't hear nearly as often about how science has quashed some Buddhist philosophy as much as you do that it's contradicting something Christian. So, I think the definition of religion would need to be more clearly defined. Is it just the belief in some invisible being directing the traffic down here? What?

Because my heathen worldview is, at it's core, a lifestyle and not a faith. I don't have to have faith in the aesir to be heathen. I don't have to give offerings, or worship, or think that there's an afterlife. What I do need is a feeling of responsibility to the members of my family, my descendants and my community. I need an understanding that my actions influence others and that I should act as responsibly and honorably as possible. (This isn't exclusive to heathenry, and the argument for what makes it heathen w/o religion is for a different topic.)

So, again, I don't know what science can say to that. If science proved to me, without a shadow of a doubt, that the gods did not exist it wouldn't end my heathenry. It would end my religious activites but it wouldn't put a stop to the foundation of the worldview. Those undisputable philosophies are what drew me to heathenry. I don't know, for example, if the same can be said of Christianity, whose whole philosophy is built on the idea of returning to the kingdom of heaven. Christianity is powered by God, centered around God, and if he's taken from the equation it unravels. At least in my non-christian outsider viewpoint, which may very well be wrong.

Another argument I use is that my religion doesn't explain the world away- it has absolutely nothing to do with how we came to be here, or what our purpose here is, or where we need to go or grow spiritually. The gods are a cultural expression. I think they literally exist, yes, but I don't think they have anything to do with science. Whether we come from primal ooze or not, at some point that ooze decided it needed some ethics and the gods are symbolic of those ethics presiding over a community greater than the individual. "But it's ignorant to think gods preside over those ethics". Well, the gods aren't the point- the ethics are. They can have my gods but I'll still believe that ''cattle die, kinsman die, even you will die, but the only thing that lasts is a good name."

Ah... so I don't know if that was an articulate and concise rant....but basically, my 'faith' isn't rooted in anything that science presides over. Science explains the mechanics of the world to me but it's my worldview that colors it with action, and those choices of actions aren't dependant upon the existance of gods.

[RandallS]

Given, I know that paganism is an umbrella term and there are many different philosophical backgrounds that can and do exist one question I have always had, had sometimes asked, and have never had answered, is how do you respond if your faith is questioned?

To be honest, I generally do not care. Unless they are trying to convince people that my beliefs should be banned or the like, why should I care. The Christian God wants his followers to convince others to worship him and him alone, so they tend to feel a need to answer such challenges and an entire branch of Christian thought, Apologetics, has grown up around this. My gods don't really care if you believe in them or not and haven't commanded me to convince others to follow them. This is true of most Pagan religions.

[DaftWullie]

To be honest, I generally do not care. Unless they are trying to convince people that my beliefs should be banned or the like, why should I care. The Christian God wants his followers to convince others to worship him and him alone, so they tend to feel a need to answer such challenges and an entire branch of Christian thought, Apologetics, has grown up around this. My gods don't really care if you believe in them or not and haven't commanded me to convince others to follow them. This is true of most Pagan religions.

my question is what if they do try to ban your beliefs.. though that question has been answered in the thread..

could we get past the evangilistic aspect of christianity to understand other ways apologetics can be taken? For example, the Lutheran confessions were written so that they wouldnt be killed or otherwise ostrisized for the way they saw fit to believe or the way to believe. It was more "we arent wrong" than it is "we are more right than you" though I guess you can make the argument that because the confessions call the office of the Papicy a anti-christ it isnt the most pacifist either.

maybe it the difference is that christians even if they arent evangelistic as much as they should wear their faith on their sleeve and pagans can have a tendency to be more secretive and or solitary?

this is probably a little off topic but since it has came up; is the fact that christianity is evangelistic enough of a reason that a christian seeking to learn about paganism may not be seen to have a true or "pure" desire to learn about it? This bugs the hell out of me..

this may sound off but i cant help but feel postmodernism colors contemporary paganism more than it has in earlier periods. is this totally off base?

Thanks for the insight you've given me so far; it is invaluable to me.. I am still trying to understand but I guess getting through your worldview sometimes is like breaking through a brick wall with your forehead.. (this goes both ways, i believe)

[Darkhawk]

my question is what if they do try to ban your beliefs.. though that question has been answered in the thread..

Beliefs cannot be banned; they exist in people's heads, and until someone develops powerful psychic skills or telepathy technology, nobody can know them. This is one of the reasons that I think that people talking about belief are having useless conversations; there's no way to know if anything anyone claims to believe is actually the case. (See also: superficial surface "conversions" to Christianity in order to be left alone.) Belief is of pretty minor relevance in my perspective on religion, since it is so useless.

Meanwhile, I still live in a country where people trying to attack minority religions are acting in a way broadly recognised as against the law, and thus can be dealt with by the law.
maybe it the difference is that christians even if they arent evangelistic as much as they should wear their faith on their sleeve and pagans can have a tendency to be more secretive and or solitary?

this is probably a little off topic but since it has came up; is the fact that christianity is evangelistic enough of a reason that a christian seeking to learn about paganism may not be seen to have a true or "pure" desire to learn about it? This bugs the hell out of me..

I wouldn't be surprised if it were a factor for some people. I don't personally worry about it with most Christians, but if I catch a whiff of "I want to know what you do so that I can figure out how to attack it" I'm pretty disinclined to engage. (Frankly, more of my context for that sort of behaviour is from militant evangelising atheists than Christians.)

[HeartShadow]

I don't think that the fact that Christianity is evangelical makes it impossible to have a discussion about paganism with a Christian - HOWEVER! It does take looking at the world a different way.

Christianity is meant to be a religion for EVERYONE. You're SUPPOSED to share it, bring it to people that haven't found it, etc. A lot of pagan religions really don't give a damn what other people believe - and that's a fundamental change in worldview. Some pagan religions are downright secretive.

Can we have a conversation? of course we can. Do I have the proof that I'm more right than you? ... nope, and I don't need it. If you try to discriminate against me for my religion, I don't need proof my religion's okay - I need a lawyer.

It's not the same world as when Lutherans were fighting for the right to believe as they would. So it's not the same set of problems.

And, again, pagan theologies just plain aren't that put together. Belief isn't nearly as important as acts in a lot of pagan faiths. As long as you do the right thing, it doesn't matter if you believe you're really sacrificing to Bessy the Cow.