Not venerating one's ancestors

[Valdi]

I saw a thread similar to this (well sort of) elsewhere, and decided to ask it in this SIG.

I know that venerating one's ancestors is important in Ásatrú - but can that be left out, either wholly or mostly, if one is not close to his or her ancestors, such as if is (and was, in the case of deceased ancestors) not close to them for some reason?


Thoughts?

[Lokabrenna]

I saw a thread similar to this (well sort of) elsewhere, and decided to ask it in this SIG.

I know that venerating one's ancestors is important in Ásatrú - but can that be left out, either wholly or mostly, if one is not close to his or her ancestors, such as if is (and was, in the case of deceased ancestors) not close to them for some reason?


Thoughts?

There are a couple of articles by a certain controversial author on this subject that I think might be of interest (just have a bucket of salt ready):

"Top Ten Questions About Ancestor Veneration"

http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Add...7-12-2011.html

and

"The Mother of All Ancestor Questions"

http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Add...7-20-2011.html

I suppose the idea might seem odd to some because the gods, to some extent, are our ancestors. There's a reason they're called "the Elder Kin" after all, but I'm a bit of an odd one out, because when it comes to honouring my close human ancestors, it feels strange and alien to me (and not something I believe my Catholic ancestors would likely welcome).

[hlewagastir]

I suppose the idea might seem odd to some because the gods, to some extent, are our ancestors. There's a reason they're called "the Elder Kin" after all

Hmm... That some kings claimed sacred kingship is a fact, however, not being from a royal line I don´t really bother with that.
I do not consider the gods our ancestors at all.


Valdi:

I know that venerating one's ancestors is important in Ásatrú - but can that be left out, either wholly or mostly, if one is not close to his or her ancestors, such as if is (and was, in the case of deceased ancestors) not close to them for some reason?

I do not see how not venerating your ancestors prevent you from sacrificing to the gods and to receive luck and favour in return.
That being said; they are you ancestors and have interacted with the luck and peace of your family, for good or bad - and they have a vested interest in you, something that the gods don´t necessarily have (from a recon perspective anyway).
Are there any special reason why you do not want to honour them with sacrifices and veneration?

[Juniperberry]

I saw a thread similar to this (well sort of) elsewhere, and decided to ask it in this SIG.

I know that venerating one's ancestors is important in Ásatrú - but can that be left out, either wholly or mostly, if one is not close to his or her ancestors, such as if is (and was, in the case of deceased ancestors) not close to them for some reason?


Thoughts?

You don't have to venerate them, but it might be important to reflect on who your ancestors are and what they have done. Our family lines are, IMO, an important aspect of heathenry.

Worldview: You aren't just you. You weren't an unborn soul who chose to be born at a specific time, to specific people, for specific lessons. Your family brought you here, to this time. You are the result of their choices and the continuation of a narrative. It isn't the narrative of just your parents.Using myself as an example, I live in America and didn't chose America, my parents didn't chose America. My great-great grandfather Christian S. got on a boat and created a life here. I am living his choice. I am living the choice of grandmother homosapien X who decided to migrate into Europe. Without that choice of hers my life could be wholly different. I am the result of all of my families choices- I am their lives moving forward.

To take that further how I raise my children will influence how they raise their children and so on and so forth until 1,000 years from now my descendants are giving life influenced by mine. The choices I make today are important and I am responsible for the future. I am extending love to generations I do not know but can imagine. And at some point in history, there was a heathen family living their life with a concept of me. When 2,000 men died on a battlefield in 600ad, one of them could have been my ancestor--fighting for me and this moment of mine. I find that beautiful and profound.

A person's history is both good and bad but those are the people that brought me here. I don't give honor to all as individuals but I give honor to the tapestry. To those who did try to make choices, those who gave the family a good name, those who lived and struggled as much as I have. Some weren't great, but they brought me to this life in which I understand and embrace the full import of family and my responsibilities to them and those who come after me.

Its not even just my children. My cousin just had a son and somewhere in his life he'll hear a story about me and that story, even if subtly, will influence his opinions, his judgements, and add color to his understanding of life. I.will have influenced him, however slight. And his mother.

So...that's what ancestry is. You can chose to venerate your ancestors or not, but there's a heathen take on it. Historically, the smallest unit wasnt the individual but the family. You aren't just you. You are your family, so live a life with a good name and build something good for others.

[Valdi]

Are there any special reason why you do not want to honour them with sacrifices and veneration?

I suppose in brief, from having mostly negative experiences with my living ancestors - parents and grandparents. This isn't some over-emotional teenager thing, I'm out of my teens for one.

Things like being ostracised from the family and called negative things ("worthless, never amount to anything, probably going to end up a murderer or something (on account of me not spending much time with them because they'd ignore me people, eh?), biggest mistake of parents' lives, not worth the air I breathe, stuff like that.)

An example of one of these, my grandmother never said anything positive to me from as far back as I can remember - only negative stuff - until her death. Literally, not one thing. The only members of my family who have been okay with me (excluding my wife and kids, whom I love and have an excellent relationship with) are a couple of cousins (whom I see once a year), my mother (who is only interested in the kids, not me - whenever we're together, for example, if I go to visit, she will immediately up and leave the room I go in) and my brother (whom I speak to most of all, although he wishes me to be "saved by the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ", he's probably my closest family member excluding my wife and kids). My father is sometimes okay, but he switches from a sort of "liking a bit" to calling me a disappointment or "not right in the head".


I don't consider myself to have been emotionally abused or neglected anything--I don't even hold any hatred or contempt for them, and their words have never hurt me or made me cry. I just don't see why I should give honour to a family who don't really like me and have acted like assholes for as long as I can remember. I find the idea of spending an afterlife with them---a view some people hold---for me that seems more like a punishment for me than anything at this moment in time.

I think that gives a bit of an insight, I suppose.
Input and/or criticism is appreciated.

[Valdi]

Thoughts?

Would anyone like to comment further on this for me? It's okay if not.

I'm wondering if it would be better to honour one's lineage as opposed to direct ancestors, or to honour one's community instead.

[Juniperberry]

Would anyone like to comment further on this for me? It's okay if not.

I'm wondering if it would be better to honour one's lineage as opposed to direct ancestors, or to honour one's community instead.

Have you taken into consideration the dsir or hamingja?

[Asch]

I saw a thread similar to this (well sort of) elsewhere, and decided to ask it in this SIG.

I know that venerating one's ancestors is important in Ásatrú - but can that be left out, either wholly or mostly, if one is not close to his or her ancestors, such as if is (and was, in the case of deceased ancestors) not close to them for some reason?


Thoughts?

First off, I'm not a Heathen *hooks a thumb at religious description* but ancestor worship/veneration is a part of what I do, as well as honoring/worshiping local land spirits and deities.

I had a hard time with this as well 'cause my mother was a Christian as well as most of her half of my family. My maternal grandparents actually started a church in AK that is still around. I spoke with some of the clergy and other members of ADF (online and partly piggy backing on someone with a similar situation's inquiries) and came to this conclusion:

I will leave the 'door' open so to speak for her in rituals and prayers. I won't cut her out but I won't demand her 'presence' so to speak, same with the rest. As far as criminals, I'm fairly certain there were two brothers in her line that committed murder then changed their names and fled to another part of the U.S.

Fact is, if you go back far enough, not only are we all cousins we're all related to some horrific people that chose to do unspeakable things to other humans. It sucks but that's what we come from. I make a conscious choice to revere and honor those that came before me but I also choose to honor those that did so without becoming monsters or doing terrible things.

It's a tough line to walk.

But there y'go a non-heathen ancestor worshiping perspective

[Nicole]

Would anyone like to comment further on this for me? It's okay if not.

I'm wondering if it would be better to honour one's lineage as opposed to direct ancestors, or to honour one's community instead.

Let me add the "I am not a Heathen" disclaimer on this post.

That aside, I have struggled with this heavily. I come from a very rough relationship with my family who have a running history of abuse and other unpleasant things coming down both my mother and father's side. This has made it very difficult for me to do ancestor work, because I didn't associate much with my family at all. I didn't even get into the practice of ancestor veneration until after my mother died, and even then, I was frustrated because it seemed that when I reached out to my ancestors, I got responses from a loose handful of souls in the most recent generations, and more from far, far into the past.
But, I couldn't even find my family history. It seemed like no matter how hard I tried to gather scattered facts from my family, or how long I spent sifting through the records on Ancestry.com and other sites, I couldn't find anything in specifics about where my family came from. What was more infuriating was that I remember, as a teenager, playing around on the computer and finding some location that tracked the lineage of my last name back to names and places in the far-back origins of the Scottish side of my family. Now, I can't find a damned thing. At first, I took this kind of personally. I come from a family who is Christian, and just figured that my beliefs were too "spooky" and unacceptable for them. I figured they didn't want anything to do with me, as I've heard of this happening. So, I put ancestor work aside for a time, until I began to learn more about my mother's history with her family and thought about things.
They say that the disir, or honored female dead, are among the most powerful of a person's ancestors. I feel like I've been able to have a relationship and understanding with my mother, in death, that was not possible between us in life. Having learned more about what she experienced from her family, and what in turn seems to have been experienced by hers, I think it's entirely possible that when my mother died, she took the high seat among my disir and promptly declared, "None of you fuckers are talking to my daughter." She was offering me a separation from the abusive history and demeanor of my family, if you will.

You may find that individuals with whom you did not have a good relationship in life are repentant in death. This is certainly not always the case, but if there any desire to have closeness with/preserve a certain relationship, it may be worthwhile to reach out to that ancestor for a foundation, if you will.
But, if they're not or there's no one in your memory that you want anything to do with, you can go back beyond that. Your family has long lines descending from distinct histories. There's nothing saying you have to interact with the part of your family that was or is the source of the problems you face with your living relatives. In the end, we're all descended from Mitochondrial Eve. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve I know it's a step down from blasphemy against God to source Wikipedia, but this is honestly well-written, and you can find several scientific articles on this that are less concisely phrased.)
You don't have to know where you come from to do ancestor work. It's helpful, yes. But, I know little more of my family origins than where my family last names originate, and even that's hazy. For example, my father's mother's maiden name, Nagel, could be Dutch, Irish, or German and I have no idea which we are.

In the end, if you feel the practice is important to you, just offer and make space in your life and practice. You don't have to work with the ancestors that damaged you, and you can present that caveat when you set up your practice.

But, there's nothing forcing you to do so, obviously. Though your ancestors are your most committed protectors and benefactors. You are the combined effort of all their work and aspirations. They have a very vested interest in your success.

If you struggle with how to do this, and you're not a hard reconstructionist, you may wish to glance into some of the Cuban and African Diaspora religions for some ideas on ancestor reverence. I take a lot of inspiration for a Santeria practitioner that I know, and she really helped me get my stuff moving.

I hope that's helpful!

[Valdi]

Have you taken into consideration the dsir or hamingja?

I hadn't thought about that. That sounds like a good idea! Hamingja and the dísir seem good choices to me.

But there y'go a non-heathen ancestor worshiping perspective

Your perspective is greatly appreciated. You made some very good points.

and even then, I was frustrated because it seemed that when I reached out to my ancestors, I got responses from a loose handful of souls in the most recent generations, and more from far, far into the past.

I'm spiritually stunted due to an irreligious upbringing. May I ask how you received responses? You may take it to PM if you'd feel more comfortable discussing it there, or you can simply say no if you like - but I'm very interested.

But, I couldn't even find my family history.

As someone who knows almost nothing about his ancestors, I empathise with you. I only think I know my father's parent's names. I'm not certain of it without me having to ask. I never met either of them.

If you struggle with how to do this, and you're not a hard reconstructionist, you may wish to glance into some of the Cuban and African Diaspora religions for some ideas on ancestor reverence. I take a lot of inspiration for a Santeria practitioner that I know, and she really helped me get my stuff moving.

I hope that's helpful!

Interesting. I've always had a soft spot for Santería (and Rastafari). I'm not very knowledgeable on African traditional religions, though. Are these groups active here?

Your input has been helpful, and a very interesting read.



Thank you very much, everyone, for what I've read and the advice I've been given.